SAmadei

More like FWD geriatrics. *Yawn* Somebody up in this thread mentioned how the Lucerne and LaCross looked dated... IMHO, they would have looked dated if they came out ten years ago... this from someone who _likes_ Buicks. Stephen

I seriously disagree. I feel the majority of car buyers are not looking to buy a car every year. The logic is not, "oh, I wanted the wagon, but it wasn't available, so I bought a sedan last year and bought a wagon this year... but I really want the coupe, and I'll get that next year." Sedan, coupe and wagon buyers are different demographics... and in many cases, are not interchangeable. The reason the sedan is first to market is that it sells the best and the logic is to get it out there to grab the lion's share of buyers first... however, I feel this is slowly self-defeating... Usually, the coupe is the halo-car. It has the most dramatic styling. The coupe grabs your heart and pulls you into the dealer's lot. Sure, you drive out with a sedan, as the logical part of your mind takes over. With the strategy of release one each year, by the time the coupe or wagon is released in year three, its obsolete... its a has-been. Nobody wants it, and you're lucky to pull people into the dealer to look at it, let alone buy it. Plus you lose the 'halo-effect'. I would even go out on a limb and suggest that releasing the three variants would increase each variant's sales due to the 'halo-effect'... the sedan sales would increase due to sales to people who initially were attracted to the dealer by the coupe or wagon. If your going to spend the money to have three variations, get them to market in year one... excite the buyer... entice the buyer ... with _choice_. IMHO, the G8 ST could be genius... if the general public learns about it, and goes to the dealer to see it, they may not buy it... but buy a G8 sedan instead. Plus, you're going to spend more money developing the car in the future, anyway... i.e., to oversimplify, lets say every year it costs 2% more to develop a car... engineers expect yearly raises. Lets say it cost $100 to develop a car. So if you drop all three forms in one year, it cost you $300 to develop it. OTOH, you offer a new one each year, the first costs $100, the second costs $102, the third costs $104.04... total is now $306.04. I'd rather see this incremental improvement in drivetrains, as I believe buyers are more interchangeable in this aspect... a buyer looking for a manual may settle for an automatic... or would be more willing to trade up to a new, manual car later. Just my thoughts, at least... Stephen

Oh, the idea stolen from a 1962 Studebaker? Stephen

Hasn't anyone ever thought to tip large objects onto their side?!? The nice thing about a wagon, is that the roof acts as a shelf... you can put items inside the car... and put larger items on the roof. Putting things on the roof of many SUVs is a PITA, unless you are 9 foot tall. In my experience, when loading vehicles, you can only go so high. Most people's "stuff" is far to delicate to stack 4 boxes high. You need floor space, not roof space. Granted, I have a long wagon... but GM has a long history of producing nice wagons of all sizes. Wagons tend to be more aerodynamic, lighter, better on gas, are easier to get into, and tip over less than SUVs. I also don't see where Americans (outside of the large cities) want a fairly compact vehicle. They wanted Tahoes, Suburbans and Expeditions until a couple months ago when it was obvious that gas prices where here to stay. Agreed... that looks interesting. Its a wagon from the 1950s. Yeah, like a V6 G8 Sportwagon. I realize there is no Kingswood coming... hence I bought my Caprice for a song. Things like the HHR and CTS-W are useless for me. They still have to pass the "does the driver fit" test... and fail. Stephen

It was a bold statement, but in the end, a wagon is about functionality, not taste. For it's size and weight, the Magnum is not a functional wagon, but is a fashion niche... and that's why it is gone. IMHO, you're right... not aimed at the wine-and-cheese... but I feel it was aimed squarely at Ma and Pa Pickup/SUV driver... who looked at the cargo capacity and laughed. Stephen

The Magnum was an hideous wagon. Sure, it had the RWD and V8... but the front was SUV-ugly, its cargo area was small, and the rear treatment was awkward to load. I looked at them many times and wondered how one would put a TV in the back without having to drive around with the goofy hatch way up in the air. I like wagons, and would love to have a modern replacement for my '95 Caprice... with cylinder deactivation, more gears, or better yet... a hybrid. I'm not holding my breath, though. I'm sure I'll have to buy a Mercedes. Stephen

I have to agree. With GM's "crossbar" style tumbler, I've found they only get looser over the years, unlike Ford and Mopar which can get jammy. I doubt it's your key cylinder. I don't know if you have a manual or automatic or column shift or the floor shift. Also, I don't know if your key interlock is still functional... If you have an automatic, there is probably play in the key interlock. The interlock rotates the lower column housing to ensure the tranny is in park before allowing the key to be removed. Sometimes, this binds or doesn't quite move enough (as its a bunch of sloppy linkage) to allow the key to be removed. The solution being to put the car back in Drive and slap it back into Park. Failing that, you can reach down and turn the column by hand. this is likely what the locksmith did by accident to remove the key. If you have a car with the key interlock linkage removed (it interferes with headers), like my sister's 1969 Firebird, you can drive the car for miles and one day, the column housing will vibrate a little too far out of wack and the key won't come out... which, as you can imagine, requires the manual rotation of the column housing back to the 'release' position. Hopefully, this will sound reasonable and make sense. Stephen

1. No 2. Nope. Stephen

1. None. I've never bought new. I have gone to the Pontiac dealer three times (2002 Trans Am, 2004/5 GTO, 2006 Solstice) to try to get in one, but was unable to come to a decent agreement. I have about 15 used Pontiacs. 2. G8 GXP Coupe... or G8 Coupe with a 600hp aftermarket supercharger kit... G8 wagon (prefer GXP wagon)... G8 ST... might settle for a G8 GXP Sedan. 3. What GM cars would I by in Pontiac's absence... A coupe version of the STS/DTS. Failing that, I'm a BMW/Mercedes buyer. Stephen

No marque is ever necessarily dead forever. Look at Maybach, Bugatti, Mini... With GM's health on shaky ground, perhaps a group of folks would be happy to purchase the rights to the brand name. Oldsmobile doesn't make GM any money sitting in the dustbin of history. And if GM won't sell it willingly, just wait until GM goes chapter 7. ;-) I wonder how much Cerberus wants for the AMC naming rights? After all, they are a group of folks that supposedly know a good deal when they see it.

Edsels were high quality cars in their time, as well. Only difference is that the Ford family knew better to euthanize the brand after three years, rather than 20. GEO was a better idea (and generally more profitable) than Saturn.

Agreed. The killing of the Firebird really drew a lot of soul out of Pontiac. The killing of the Bonne was also a blow. While I like the GTO and Solstice, they don't have the "Pontiac Attitude", that the Firebird had... and which somewhat rubbed off onto the rest of the line. So, you couldn't afford a Firebird? Well, the Sunbird/Sunfire had some family resemblance. Needed a Firebird with room for family, the Grand Prix and Bonneville had some of the feel. Even if it was just in the mind of the people driving the non-Firebird Ponchos. My thinking is that Lutz is pushing GM to do _no_ badge engineering, at all. Badge engineering was not always bad. Look at the '64-'72 A-bodys. Or the '81-88 G-bodys. Each GM division got a complete car to match the division's personality. Even the Sunfire/Cavalier wasn't a bad badge job. In some cases, it took a trained eye to tell which cars were twins. Companies today are doing badge jobs across companies... Toyota/Pontiac, Mercury/Nissan, Nissan/Chrysler... so it must work. But Lutz would rather have no product that badge engineered product, it seems. Yeah, bad badge engineering... Cobalt/G5 was bad. So were the W-bodies... So were the older J-cars. My guides for GM badge engineering... 1. You can't have more than 3 brands share a badge job in a market. Yeah, GM did this successfully in the '60s-'80s, but those days are over. 2. All badge jobs much include more than the grill, badges and taillight change. At a minimum, the body should have unique external pressings, and the interior should have a different flavor. 3. No badge jobs for brands "just to get into a new niche". I.e., Cadillac Cimarron, Saturn Sky, Pontiac Torrent, Buick Skyhawk. It would have been fine for Saturn to get the Sky first... then Pontiac... but in the reverse order, it's too much of a "me too!" thing. IMHO, platforms cost money, and good badge engineering saves money. IMHO, Buick should get a version of the G8 to stir up some excitement. The G6 needs a kick-ass refresh. The next Cobalt and G5 need to here now and have somewhat separate flavors. There should have been a 2010 Firebird.

In the same issue they test the new Jaguar XK (or something). The G8 GT compares favorably with the Jag in all sorts of categories... even though it is less powerful by 60 HP, the Pontiac was faster to about 60-70 where the Jag takes over. The Pontiac has more space, is lighter, yet was quieter! Oh, and cost half as much. The Jag did out handle the Poncho... and had copious amounts of wood and leather... did I mention the Pontiac cost half as much? ;-) Bring on the GXP (and G8 Coupe)!

Gas could be $80 a gallon... I'm not buying a car I can not physically fit in. I'm too wide and too tall. The average American is at least too wide, and thats a big reason the big trucks sold well. Cue the need for big, hybrid cars. Saturn has to go. Its memories are too bad. My girlfriend won't even consider another Saturn. Dealership network is a bunch of crooked liars and shady mechanics. She thinks I'm nuts even _considering_ buying GM. If GM wants to sell Opel crap in the US... sell it as an Opel. You can recreate the dealer network and limit it's numbers. Nobody remembers the awful Opels of the '70s. All this talk of Pontiac being a damaged marque... yet the flagship is selling at capacity and overall sells 3 times the cars Saturns does. It's clear to me who's gotta go. And take Hummer (poseur 4x4s for soccer moms) and Saab (sell it off) with you. And the stupid ass unions... When can GM tell the Unions to go to hell? There has to be a way to un-unionize the GM plants. If Toyota and Honda can run a factory with happy employees and high quality products without a union, so can GM. Fire all the strikers and put a big ad in Craigslist in the areas where Toyota's and Honda's factories are... and pay them a bit more to relocate to Detroit or where ever they're needed. I'll do Wagoner's job for $1/yr and stock options... like Jobs does for Apple. Fix up GM in two weeks. ;-) Just my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

Actually, in retrospect, I didn't write that right... what I meant was that nobody produces a _high production_ SUV closer to the Cayenne than the Torrent _GXP_. Most of my comments concerning the Torrent have to do with the GXP version. I wouldn't consider anything but, so the base Torrent doesn't exist to me, as it is too close to the Chevy Nox. As for the Tourag... its a lower production, badge engineered Cayenne. I don't have production figures, but when I car-watch as I drive, Tourags are pretty rare compared to Cayennes. I swear I can't go more than a few blocks in the NYC area without seeing 5 Cayennes. At the time I wrote this, I wasn't considering some of the new Jeeps with Hemi badging... but I don't feel these are marketed as sporty, but marketed as powerful. But from a recent high speed cruise down the freeway alongside a Hemi Jeep, I can attest to them having quite a bit of high end pickup... where my LT1 Caprice started to run out.

Tell that to the Pontiac Marketing folk... who compare the Torrent GXP as a faster competitor to the base Cayenne. The Cayenne's claim to fame is that it is the fastest production SUV... I'm not going to argue that the Torrent has the Cayenne beat in quality, refinement or prestige... it doesn't. Its an Apples to Oranges comparison, just as comparing the G8 to the 5 series is. But in either comparison, you are getting a faster vehicle for half the price, if you can live without the finer bits. I can't think of any other SUVs that come closer to the Cayenne than the Torrent, in any case.

So this proves... that the government was right?!? All GM needed was a threat of higher CAFE and they just started making higher MPG cars without trade offs? So this is going to encourage president dumb-ass to yell louder at the automakers to get even better CAFE gains? We'll be up to 45 MPG by the end of the year! Methinks GM should have made this move before the CAFE brew-ha-ha.

Sorry, I prefer Google Maps on the Blackberry... free once you have the phone. My employer supplies the phone, so free for me! Mine doesn't have GPS, but can locate my whereabouts pretty easily. Plus I can get (weak) traffic info and satellite maps. I also prefer the handheld nature, even though the Google lawyers specifically deny allowing me to use it while actually driving. In the end, its small enough to take with me anywhere. Some of the portable Nav systems are kinda large for my taste... and don't have a camera, phone and media player. :-P

I _like_the idea of the Torrent... a Cayenne competitor... but I don't think the current GXP has enough grunt. Put the LS3 in there and I'd seriously consider it. Otherwise, if the Equinox is 90% of the vehicle the Torrent GXP is, then GM has not distinguished the Torent enough and it needs to leave. I don't think it should reappear as the Terrain, either.

Hmmm... imagine one of those 3200 pound cars (My '70 Tempest is about 3200, as it is a stripper) with a 260hp power plant from the Solstice... Better than my 140hp stock straight six... that'll get good mpg!

Obviously, I had the Gx series of names... but I hate that Pontiac is using even numbers more (obviously, except for the G5). For some reason, odd numbers give me a slightly better feeling of feng shui. In this world... G1 - Smart car competitor. G3 - Existing Cobalt clone. G5 - Existing G6. G7 - Existing G8. G9 - Larger G8 vehicle... Bonne sized. But this was all a non sequitur.

I don't get the RWD=bad MPG thinking, either. Granted, RWD has a small weight penalty, but I'd rather loose 100-200 pounds of sound deadening, wires and insulation instead of the ride and drive of RWD. Here's a great start for the new CAFE requirements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f9f4Ix6sia8 35mpg in 1975... with RWD even!

I'm seeing news that the '08 G8 shipments are ending and supply is drying up to make way for '09s in June. I was hearing that the Stealth Blue (Or whatever the color shifting Blue was called) was going to be a late '08 G8 option. If the shipments are drying up, did any ship? I wasn't able to find any via Pontiac's website or that G8 inventory system.

Where is the G8 GXP?!? I like the Stryker Blue, but I wanted my G8 GXP in the Stealth Blue... When in doubt, I'll take mine in Black.

Well, assuming this _isn't_ an April fools prank... _WHEN_ do I have to wait for a G8 coupe? Then will I need to wait even longer for a GXP? Or another year for the 6-speed? See, I think this this bad for business... tease after tease. I'm not interested in buying a G8 GT one year... a G8 GXP sedan the next, then a G8 GXP Coupe the next. Now, I'm waiting for a unicorn... just like when I heard news that the 2005 GTO was going to be so much better than the 2004. I understand cars are going to typically get better every year, but if GM made a full line of body styles/drivetrains, it wouldn't matter if I got a 2008 G8 or a 2010. I would know that I can walk into a GM dealership any year and buy a new RWD, V8, 6-speed, coupe... In fact, if I was confident in this, I'd likely plan to buy a new car every other year or so... instead, when I get my new G8 unicorn, I have to treasure it... it might be the last one I can get. I can't help but wonder if my constant b*tching at NYIAS for a decent coupe paid off. ;-) Next year my campaign will be for the G8 wagon... I would actually consider buying a coupe and a wagon at the same time it they were in the dealer's lot.