SAmadei

The C&D I just got in the mail (April '09?) has a short review of the G8 GXP, which C&D is starting to take _very_ seriously. In the rear of the magazine, they have their "current top 5's"... the G8 GT is top Sport Sedan and G8 GXP is top American muscle car, IIRC. In fact, for a magazine that nearly declared the BMW M3 the winner in an all-Corvette comparo (Just kidding), I felt GM had a pretty good showing in the "current top 5's" with the G8, Vette, CTS and Cobalt SS.

WTF? Why not give this autonomy to its brands in North America?

I hear you. I wouldn't take the Corolla or Cobalt as a daily driver, as they do not work for me. Handling-wise, are we comparing to the standard Cobalt or the SS? I respect the better specs of the SS, but then its not fair to compare to the standard Corolla. I haven't driven a Corolla XRS or a Cobalt SS, so I can't compare. I can't say the Cobalt I drove was that much better at handling that the Corolla to offset some of the Corolla's other strengths. Also, handling has a lot to do with the tires installed... and with the replacement tires on the Corolla (Tripletreds... not all out sport tires), it handles MUCH better than it did with the original tires. Of course, take that with a grain of salt... I never tried the Corolla on the fresh OEM tires... only after 25-40K, they were AWFUL.

This is some BAD assuming here... this is 300,000 sales made out of thin air. Based on the Oldsmobile Death Sentence Experiment, you can't assume Chevy/GMC will inherit Saturn sales and Cadillac will inherit Buick sales. Ain't going to happen. You got on thing right, though... Kill off Pontiac and kiss those sales goodbye forever. I think the idea of having a Chocolate, Vanilla and Cookie Dough flavor of one platform is a good thing... GM is squandering a fortune in high-end Trans Am sales because they aren't willing to build a handful of Firebird specific parts. GM's cost problems are much bigger than too many brands, IMHO. If eliminating brands is the goal, lets cut to the chase. Introduce the GM Car. One model to rule them all. I'd rather see GM give it's brands independence... even it is BPG and a couple other horrifying combos, like Saab-Hummer-Daewoo. Let them hire the best guns and compete to survive. It's better than the hospice treatment that is killing ALL GM's brands. Chevy, included.

GM isn't funded until 2012. So Saturn is going to outlast GM? Everything GM spews is conjecture and subject to change. Makes me think GM management has multiple, psychotic personalities. Sometimes I think that if Warren Buffet suddenly declared he would invest heavily in GM with the desire of a new Oldsmobile 98, Chevrolet would be renamed Oldsmobile in a heartbeat.

I am a diehard GM guy, but I actually like the Corolla a bit. My friend has a 2003. Granted, its uncomfortable as hell for someone of my size... but for it's size, its impressive. I fit about as well in the Corolla as in the G6... a considerably longer car. It moves pretty good considering the small engine, but you have to drive it like you hate it... and with decent tires (GY TripleTreds), it sticks to everything. It gets 40 mpg on the highway and has absorbed every pothole and hit NY drivers deliver to it. Its a barebones, functional, reliable machine... boring... not as boring as a Camry. I might not be able to outrun NYC taxis, but I can out dodge them. Maybe the newer ones are crappier... but for all my debating about how great American cars are... I can't find much fault with the Corolla... I can't say the same thing about the Cobalt. Granted, I haven't driven a Cobalt for a long time, however. I'd never buy one, or even rent one... but I can say that for the Cobalt, as well.

I can't speak for FOG, I don't recall his personal specs. I only consider myself to be on the close to the edge of freakishly tall. I am 6'4", so depending on your source, I am in the 90-95th percentile. Unfortunately, I am longer in the torso than the average proportion... if my legs were more in average proportion to my torso height, I would be closer to 6'10"... this makes me dislike sunroofs, tall seats, short roofs. However, this is not the problem for the front passenger seat in the G8... the problem there is leg room... and my legs are the same length as my 5'9" sibling. OTOH, I am also quite hefty... 380-390 right now, but in a Tony Siragusa way, not a "can't get out of bed, need a forklift to go to the hospital" way. I recognize this also impacts my fitment... however, width is usually not as much of an issue. Of course, I do not expect GM to make every car to seat 8 foot, 800 lb freaks... but keep in mind that the average McWendiesKing-fed American is catching up to me every day. This is why my theory about why SUVs are so popular... even in the era of $4 gas. People aren't going to buy something they can't drive/fit their family in. I don't drive SUV's because to me, trucks are for work and they are too hard to kept shiny side up when driven like a F1 car. However, if I didn't enjoy older cars, I would likely have been forced to drive an SUV long ago. Pardon me to be brash, but to me, GM ain't going to succeed in getting people out of Camrys, Accords and Suburbans until they can produce a modern version of the 1980 Impala. 3800 lbs, 35 mpg, 300 hp, lots of room and sold for $22K.

LOL... sometimes it seems like that. Going to have to keep the old cars going. Its just a shame, because a little common sense engineering would prevent these problems.

So, I finally got a chance to test drive a G8 GT. Awesome car. Absolutely awesome. Can't wait to drive one like I stole it. Unfortunately, due to my suddenly questionable employment status, I might not be able to get a G8 GXP until the fall... but I can see buying a lot of these as they age... stockpiling them like my B-body collection. I can even see myself going a coupe conversion on a G8, if GM won't. However, after test driving the G8, I have a minor gripe. I can fit in it and drive it... barely. I'd really like to see an inch more rearward travel. But the location of the passenger front seat is ASININE! With both seats as far back as they will go, the passenger seat is still at least 3 inches forward of the driver's seat... I can't sit there... my legs are too long. WTF! The rear passenger seat is quite nice... I fit back there even with the front seat all the way back... but I really don't want to have to do a "Driving Miss Daisy" every time I feel like giving up the wheel for a short time. I can't fit behind the driver's seat, but at least someone could. I was checking out the floorpan, but I couldn't really see it well, and I wasn't going to ask them to put it on the rack. I'd like to know if there is a easy way to relocate the seat tracks.

The GTO was not a sales failure. It sold between 80% and 90% of the production cap GM set for it. I don't consider the $30K pricetag to be out of sync when the slower Trans Am was $35K. It was a styling failure, as it didn't win over the mindsets of the old timers or the young people. GM's best stuff is not sold in this country... except the G8. People have vocally BEGGED GM to import the post '97 Caprice into this country. OTOH, the Astra has styling that makes Citroen's look good to Americans. GME's cars aren't going to fly here as Saturns, Opels, Buicks or Chevies. Are the pickup trucks and SUVs or the Accords and Camrys designed for the European market?

Making me jealous... ;-) Those fourth gen X-bodies really survived a long time, even here in Jersey. A friend of mine plowed one into a telephone pole... and even though the fender was trashed and the control arms severely bent... he drove it home without a problem. For those who have never seen an Apollo... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-N...A1%7C240%3A1318 Even has the Buick 350... note the front mounted distributer. Shame about the cheap hood scoop... but it looks like the hard-to-find Apollo parts are all intact... not a bad restoration candidate. I find it funny that this 1973 "compact" at 200 inches would slot right between the "Midsize" LaCrosse and "Full Size" Lucerne. My last off-topic post in this thread... promise.

Yeah, all the awesomeness of the Chevy Nova, but saddled with a Boat-anchor Buick 350. Of course, I wouldn't mind one, as I have a Buick 455 in the garage for it. BTW, I'm serious about the awesomeness of the Nova... it was a versatile platform available with great engines and styling.

The original Catera was too rounded and the taillight panel looked like a Chrysler product from the '90s. Say what you will about the '04-'06 GTO... at least the final product was closer to being a Pontiac than the Catera was to being a Cadillac. Sure the GTO could have been better... much better... but the Catera was awful in trying to pass itself off as a Caddy.

When I first saw this thread, it was abbreviated, "GM Holden pulls the plug on Ca"... which I thought was going to say "Camaro". I then thought it might be the Aussie's idea of revenge for the killing of the G8 ST. ;-)

What is it with the salvage titles anymore? Soon a door ding is going to get you a salvage title. I understand that the damage to this car is likely not limited to the door... with 27 new air bags and some frame tweaks, it could be as good as new. I remember not too long ago cars with SERIOUS damage would need a quarter of the body cut off and welded back on. Are the insurance companies somehow finding a new way to scam us? Score $7K in damage on a $40K car, put it on eBay and hope for $33K+ and since its a salvage, they are off the hook for liability if there was hidden defects?

Exactly. I've been to the auto show twice... around 1994 and 2007. The 1994 show was miles ahead of the 2007 show... and the highlights of 1994 show were CRAP compared to the 2007 show... at the 1994 show, the highlights were the new FWD Riv and the Trans Am, IIRC... but every booth had someone who wanted to speak to you. At the 2007 show, there was the Solstice, Camaro, G8, G8ST, CTS, STS-V... but at every booth, the personnel were more like security for the cars, instead of sales/marketing types. And at every question posed? No, thats not available. Can you get the G8 with a manual. No. Can you get the STS-V in Dark Cherry Metallic. No. Can you get this option and that option? No. Its bad enough that there are slim pickings from GM in the first place... but, jeez, lets us get the cars with the options we want! GM's new motto has gone from "Mark of Excellence" to "Sorry, We Can't Do That". The last couple issues of High Performance Pontiac have been reviewing the Pontiac auto shows from the early days to the present. Those are some HOT displays... even when the coolest car in sight is a 1977 Catalina sedan. GM management, you screwed us. Time to be voted off the island. BTW, the coolest display at the 2007 NYIAS... Smart Car. They had several cool exhibits and enthusiastic people. How much money has Penske sunk into this venture? A few million... and they are outdoing GM.

I don't have exact current pricing, but a few thousand... Lets say about $3K for the suspension parts, $2K for a decent set of wheels and tires. I've looked at quite a few in that range, and most still need work... or work redone. Or they are not particularly desirable... lots of four door Chevelles coming out of the woodwork... But quite frankly, I'm out of the market until I get my steel building built to store them in. I hope so, I still haven't found a dealer willing to let me test drive a G8 GT without checking my credit fifty different ways... though I am starting to second guess my desire to get the Pedder's suspension for it. I'm not talking about modding a '71 Cadillac... I am suggesting that GM could build a big, powerful car that was still light and could meet CAFE. If the hobbyists could build one using 40 year old parts, GM should be able to do better with its army of engineers and economy of scale. Why does every car has to be 180-196 inches long?

All things in moderation... which is what we can agree on... an Aveo doesn't have to be as stiff as a Porsche. But, stiffness is not the be all, end all to handling. There are several companies out there that can turn the YJ's Cutlass handling to the level of a Vette. No, you can't always just buy said older car. The old cars are not being created anymore... attrition from rust, emissions, ignorant people are making quality old cars very rare. Sure, I can still get a '69 Camaro for $4K... but it is in boxes and the body is well ventilated. And some of the the newer cars are brutal. Mom just got a '04 Grand Prix GTP Comp-G. Suspension is HARD. Body don't flex a bit. You feel every bump and texture of the road. It so brutal that the headlights shake like hell. It handles very nicely (though it pulls, rather than pushes), but at a cost to comfort, IMHO. As I recall, Chevrolet is supposed to be GM's entry level brand. Every Chevy except the Corvette, should be simple, safe, and lightweight. I feel the new Camaro is almost trying to compete with low end super cars. That was the Trans Am's job. You can't compare the Sedan deVille to a Corolla-Shadow frankenstein. The only thing I can think of comparing it to is a Denali XL... Caddy is roughly 4600~4700... Denali XL is about 5100~5300. I'm not going to say the Caddy is better than everything new. It's not. However, as an extreme example, a modern version of the Caddy COULD be built. A LS3... a 6L80 and some Hotchkis suspension upgrades and it will trump your Intrepid... even though it will still be roughly 4700 pounds and 20 foot long. Comfort is a subjective thing... so I'll avoid touching that.

Really? Look on the road, there are a LOT of $65K-$95K cars... more than 3%. And a lot of very new $50K+ cars that undoubtedly on short leases. A friend of mine delivers newspapers and he has a nice BMW. I guess to afford the car one wants, they are going to have to hold on to it for a few years, and not expect to drive something brand new every year. I love seeing vapid people who insist on looking richer than they really are get their just desserts. I actually meant to say 6 series (I forgot that the big coupe is now a 6 series), but in either case we are talking about a $80K car. I don't consider myself to be in a position to buy one yet, in fact, I have doubts I can afford a new G8 GXP... but that doesn't mean I couldn't buy one if, say, I stopped eating out for 18 months or so. I have better things to spend my money on. Keep in mind, I make decent dime, but I'm usually happy driving around in a giant $700 wagon that hauls ass and other stuff. That said, I can't buy a Malibu and expect it to fit my needs. My primary need is to FIT in it and drive it reasonably comfortably. I have my doubts about the G8's size when I tried it out at the auto show. With the current direction of GM, what else am I going to buy? A Lucerne or a DTS? They are going away in a couple years and cost $45-60K... I'm not paying that for a FWD car. I'll pay the extra $20K and get something I'll enjoy. MB and Mercedes are suffering, yes... but they realize it is the economy, not their product... and they are not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. They will continue providing RWD cars. If the economy continues to tank, and inflation takes off, Aveos are going to become $100K cars and people are going to remember the "Good 'Ole Days", when they could afford a car payment.

There are quite a few people who are waiting for the $40K G8 GXP. In this day, ALL cars are $19K and higher. Yeah, you can find cheaper cars, but they are really stripped and the dealers don't even want to stock them. Historically, the good cars are always double the price of the stripped down entry level cars... so $40K is not that unusual. It seems like everybody was pretty comfortable buying $30K-$60K trucks until the economy dropped out. I'm shocked how much people pay for trucks.

Thanks. I was going to post something similar, but couldn't find any good specs offhand. This is the thing that drives me nuts. Why do we have to have 23 miles of wiring, 200 pounds of sound deadener, and 500 pounds of stiffeners in the car? Because of every dumbass car magazine and reviewer. Oh, this doesn't have a heated trunk latch or 16-way rearview mirror. It's not quiet enough... I still can't hear a pin drop. It feels like a flimsy-flier because we just stepped out of a quarter million dollar Ferrari or a Mercedes that weighed more than a giant SUV. Give me a break! It seems to me that automotive efficiency peaked in 1972, just about when the government got involved. Sure, the drivetrains have gotten more efficient and have better emissions, but everything else has been out the window. My '70 Tempest with a 155 hp 6 cylinder got 22 mpg. Put a modern V6 and OD transmission in it, and it would get 35... and it would have been a lot faster with a 300 hp V6... but without the 1000 pounds of extra garbage stuffed into every car. Plus it was HUGE compared to today's crap... I could sit in the back seat! I could put a mountain of stuff in the trunk! Everyone has lost touch with how to build a simple, efficient automobile... just like we have "lost" the technology we used to send people to the moon almost a half century ago. IMHO, for it's size, the Cobalt is still a cow.

Granted, this is not the case with Chrysler today... or Ford and GM. I can still buy one of four GM nameplates with RWD in the next 6 months... (Sky and Solstice don't count... unless I lose 100 pounds and four vertebrae) However, given Chrysler's current woes, I can't bank on them continuing to hold the line. Assuming they stay in business, who can say that the bean counters, new corporate owners or minivan committee don't take GM and Ford's lead... especially with the current LX's cooling off. My line about the bumper sticker is a glimpse of the future which can _still_ change... kind of like "A Christmas Carol". I had faith in GM until the recent RWD hating that kicked off with the G8 ST... then Ford jumped in... and with everyone talking about how that even big FWD cars are nearly extinct... I fear a future in which the Malibu is the biggest American car and Chrysler is a distant memory. Have you been to NYC lately? The dumbass mayor decreed that all new taxis be hybrids. Well, there are no Crown Vic or Town Car hybrids. Two years later, when you need a taxi, sometimes you have to get into the back of an ALTIMA! The taxi driver is 6'3" and has his seat all the way back, so my knapsack barely fits behind him. Once I fit in the door, he puts the front seat all the way up... and I feel like I am sitting ALONGSIDE the driver. In three more years, because NYC taxis can be a maximum of 5 years old, there will be NO more Crown Vics. I don't know why its inconceivable for Ford to put the Escape drivetrain in a Crown Vic... or for GM to realize that a driveshaft only adds about 40 pounds to a car... but turns it from an has-been to a premium vehicle. Sorry about the rant.

Missed this thread... Wow... that is a nice Chrysler. Sure it looks a little Insignia... but its whats under the skin that counts. Would love to see what Dodge could do with the Avenger. Hope they build it.

Probably more reliable being built by GAZ than the current Sebring/Stratus, as well.

I kinda like it. It would be nice if the general public could buy one... well, without the anti-tank missile and heavy armor. Light armor would please me just fine for the drives though Newark. OTOH, I have to ask... does this meet CAFE? Well, the president should set a proper example and it should!