SAmadei

Chrysler likes to think they go toe to toe with Cadillac, but they don't. They go toe to toe with Buick. '57 era Imperials were a separate brand, and a failure, otherwise they would still be here. Dodges from 1980-2005 were mostly laughable. Most of those years, they were virtually impossible to tell from the TRUE mainstream brand, Plymouth. Where was the design language in the K-cars? How about the K-car based Daytona... yeah, that was real competitive with F-bodies and Mustangs. With the exception of the Viper and the recent LX cars (which still have polarizing styling and questionable quality), what do we have? The Neon was a nice pocket rocket... but the few people I knew who had them had problems. The Stealth was just a Mitsu rebadge with awful styling. The Caliber is slower than the Neon it replaced and generally has don't nothing but piss off the SRT-4 faithful. I liked the Intrepid, but it certainly didn't set the world afire. And design language? It's a cross-hair grill... stolen from the Ram trucks... because they are one of the only real bright spots for the '90s Dodge. But the cross-hair grill is just a tack-on... just like Pontiac's split grill. And Dodge's cross-hair grill isn't even on the best car they have... the Challenger! Modern Buick people I talk to couldn't care less about their brand... they just got a deal.

I hope so. And I feel that any group willing to spend a non-trivial amount of money on the brand should get it, if not by the bankruptcy court then by the investors. Money is money and Pontiac is an asset that only withers if left in a drawer, like Oldsmobile. If this new Pontiac was to be built in the US and without union labor, I bet they could be quite competitive, pricewise. It would also be nice to see the brand properly managed by intelligent people... like how Penske is handling Smart.

Currently "own" (in the immediate family) 13 Pontiacs, out of 26 cars. Chevy makes up the next chunk at 8 cars, but most of them were inherited. I've only ever bought one Chevy for my own purposes. The rest are a single Buick, Olds, GMC, Ford and AMC. While I really only desire a G8 GXP, the immediate family also wanted a Solstice and a Torrent GXP.

+1 I couldn't have put it better.

Then once Chevy is heavily fleeted, GM management can claim unprofitability and cancel Chevy. Someone will get a raise for that idea.

I find the Chrysler/Dodge/Buick meets the criteria of "bad outweighs the good and has for decades" far more than Pontiac has. But everyone has their rose colored glasses...

I agree with this totally... but unfortunately, its a case of perception. Cars are in our fact, and Vettes and SUVs more so, so they must be the Earth killers, right? No, usually the coal power electric plants that are getting pollution credits to subsidize their destruction of the planet. Someone needs to show all the green freaks the Top Gear Prius vs. BMW 3 series MPG comparison video (I think it was a Prius). Basically, they drove the BMW and Prius like they normally drive... i.e. like its a getaway car. The Pruis fell flat on its face and the BMW got better mileage.

I'm thinking it will get interesting when the first customer complains about build quality and they send a union thug out there to "fix" it.

They are not. It's like the old Bond scene... B-GMC: So you expect me to talk? Chevrolet: (aiming laser), no Mr. B-GMC, I expect you to die.

So far, I'm not seeing a G8 fire sale going on. The dealers are holding them pretty tightly.

GM management, sell Pontiac too, you stupid #$%#$# idiots! Irony of ironies will be when Saturn outlives GM and goes on to sell a million cars a year under the new owner.

Well, I think that bigger=better is simply ingrained in the human psyche. The Mercedes flagship is the big car. The only makes I can think of that have a small flagship are Smart and Mini. This is like hoping that the it will be hip to have no wealth or that people will be envious of the small penis. Not really seeing that happen. I suspect the LaCrosse ends up being the flagship because everyone has given up on the Lucerne for dead.

I thought my car had phantom acceleration... but it just turned out that my right leg is a maniac. ;-)

The dealers still don't seem to know. I was, once again, trying to find a dealer who will ship in a G8 GXP and I asked them their thoughts on the demise of Pontiac and they denied it, even as I pointed out the press conference.

So, after thinking... now that Kappa is dead... is the Wilmington, Del plant dead, too? What happened to the potential plan to merge Kappa and Corvette production? Does Bowling Green die next? Is the Corvette on its deathbed due to the inability to spread out the manufacturing costs? This being the tip of the iceberg, because it seems to me that the massive cutting of products leaves the rest at underutilized factories... and then GM has big retooling, reshuffling and labor issues.

Working on that, but my local dealer isn't interested in getting one I want. For reasons well beyond the scope of this thread, I don't have the time opportunity to check out every other dealer in South Jersey to get one. I very well may have to buy one sight unseen and shipped from Gay Pontiac, as they seem to be able to get their hands on GXPs. Its a race against the clock now during a time window where I really didn't want to add a $700 car payment to things... and paying cash isn't a real option because that is earmarked for something more important.

I'm not into Porsches. I was, however, one of "GM's Biggest Fans" and now I am one of their "Toughest Critics". I don't recall that the purchase of a recent GM car from GM was a requirement here. GM has told me in no uncertain terms that they do not want my new vehicle business. I will still be a fan of pre-2010 GM. And I'll still be buying from GMPP and making the occasional trip to the dealer for parts. However, BMW is likely to be my new car source.

Exactly. My lifelong interest in the new GM car hobby died today, as well. Hell, I will even say that its possible I will own a future Camaro (to convert into a Firebird), but I'm going to be damned if I buy it from GM. Its called boycotting. It would have been better had GM not produced the G8. Or teased us with the G8 ST. GM has frigging taunted us with what they _can_ produce, but _won't_ produce. Its happened for decades... as soon as GM gets is right, it gets cancelled. We're back where we were in 1997... only foreign customers get the good stuff. Well, no frigging more... GM can't hurt me by cancelling what I couldn't care less about... such as the Cobalt, LaCrosse, Impala, Malibu, DTS, etc. However, I can hurt GM by cancelling them from future consideration. So, GM, good luck on that future. I'm no longer in support of my taxpayer money bailing your burning carcass out.

Are you kidding me? After removing broken exhaust manifold bolts on a LT1, putting power steering fluid in a '99 Bonne, doing a Chevette starter (its on the top of the flywheel, not the bottom), and G3500 1 ton ball joints, an oil change on a BMW would be a breeze. For the record, I am not a professional mechanic, just a lowly shade tree guy who reads Chilton, Haynes and Hollander for entertainment.

Yeah, I wonder how that works. Do I have to start buying Canadian Ponchos?

Not when they don't make product that appeals to you. What are we going to do when the most exciting thing offered by the big two is an Impala. Or the largest car is a Cruze/Fusion? I'm not going to pay top dollar for a car that I can't stomach or fit into. (Yeah, I'm more likely to buy a car I can't stomach if its a few years old and won't depreciate driving off the lot). And why bother supporting an American industry when those people are cutting their own throats by busily shopping for Chinese made crap at Walmart and buying Toyotas in bulk, while waiting for someone in the government to bail them out of their toxic mortgage. Where are the people lamenting the American TV industry? Well, at some point Zenith (the last American built TV sets) had to switch operations because the American TV industry simply did not work any more. Well, its my feeling that the American car industry is on the verge of being inoperatible, regardless if I buy an token Impala, that I have little interest in driving, or not.

The Charger styling does not work for everyone. The Challenger is a beautiful car... but I can't believe it was designed by the same folks that made the Charger... since the Charger's front end and rear end design people apparently never compared notes until the car was on the show circuit. As for someone complaining about $1500 BMW service visits... some of us still do our own service, so that's not an issue.

Yeah, some of those are cool. I want something like that for a rollback some day. I think it reminds me of my father, since he worked on the old trucks.

The T-stat and water pump were changed about 3 years ago. I think the T-stat was just an AdvancedAuto special... I never had a bum T-stat before. Anyway, before I replace the T-stat and water pump 3 years ago, the truck never overheated, in fact, it cooled so well, I had to put a piece of cardboard in front of the grill to get heat in the winter... but the water pump started to weep, so I replaced both "just in case". After having cooling trouble, I parked it. Since then, I was using it rarely to work around the yard... without antifreeze, so I drained it every winter... so its had several burp sessions since. In the few experiments I did try a long time ago, I noticed that the return lines from the heater core do have flow... I can see it in the radiator if its running. But I disconnected the upper radiator hose from the radiator and ran the truck for 20 minutes, and a drop never came out... so I was pretty sure the T-stat was iffy. Honestly, I was scared I might have installed the T-stat upside down. So, anyway, I pulled out the T-stat today, and the van ran cooler... not much, however. I did see that there was alot more flow in the radiator... I can see the water squirting out of the radiator tubes. I also removed the upper hose and ran the engine, and needless to say, alot of dirty water ended up in my driveway. What surprised me, however, is that the flow is not constant without the T-stat... so again, I wonder if something is really amiss with the pump and it caused the T-stat to not function properly. I know how simple this cooling system is, and I'm really baffled why it still runs hot. I managed to run up to Staten Island and back (200 miles), but I had be real careful. Luckily, I don't have to use the van for awhile... I'm going to squeak it through inspection and pull the front accessories off and go through it with a fine tooth comb... including a high quality AC Delco T-stat... but I think I'm going to get a 185. I'll update, if anyone is interested.

Exactly. All CAFE did was make the relatively efficient large car nearly extinct, and chased their buyers into inefficient SUVs. I already have seen the 35mpg CAFE future. Topkick/Kodiak based SUVs. There are two _really_ big pickups that prow around here... a Topkick/Kodiak with a pickup truck bed on the back and a bright yellow International Harvester with a pickup truck bed that comes around during the summer. These get, what, 3 mpg. They make a Hummer H1 look like a Prius.