Northstar

I'll wait and see what happens with this dumb bill Bush wants before I worry. Things seem to have gotten pushed back slightly but not axed.

You should do your homework before making a fool of yourself. 702 GTOs were sold last month, and 2352 remain on lots. That equates to less than a 3 1/2 month supply. They'll be gone by the end of summer except for a few. If you want to be able to pick your color or transmission and wheel options, you better act now. Exactly. There have been 3 cars that fit the definition of a Pontiac designed past the turn of the century, and those 3 are Solstice, GTO, and G8 (Firebird was not designed before the turn of the century). What I'm saying is that the "Holdens" are closer to fulfilling any definition of a modern-day Pontiac than the modern day "Pontiacs" do. People can argue that they don't like the styling, but they can't argue that the rest is what a Pontiac is supposed to be and that's a whole lot closer to a Pontiac than "real Pontiacs." I didn't hear this huge outcry of "that's not a Pontiac!" when GM was feeding us FWD, underpowered cars that handle like crap. Now GM delivers the goods and people bitch more about them than when they were just Chevy's with different styling. If you call better performance, 1000x better interior, 1000x better handling, and overall a car that's much more fun to own "boring" compared to what you bought, then there is seriously something wrong. There is no denying that there is no aspect of the GTO that is worse than the GP, except for the trunk. Even the back seats are more comfortable. Your car is a rebagded Chevy with wider front tires and different styling. Yep, a real modern day Pontiac (which, BTW, aren't the description of "real" Pontiacs). If that's what Pontiac is to you, then fine, but the GP doesn't fit the description of a Pontiac, except tthat it has a V8, but the power is delivered through the wrong wheels. So you have a personal vendetta against Holden because some people they probably insulted you saying how much better Holdens are than Pontiacs, when in fact they were correct?

May not be a Pontiac, but it's better at being a Pontiac than any other vehicle (again, save the Solstice), than any other "Pontiac" right now. Same goes for G8. So, let's see, going by "real" Pontiacs, our equation equals: FWD/AWD only, I4 or V6 power, 2 foot overhangs, cartoonish styling, and "please don't force me to sit in there!" interiors, and basically no manual transmissions. On the other hand, our "Holdens" have/had: RWD, V8 or V6 power, manual transmissions (if you want), sleek, tasteful lines, and great interiors. Now, let me think about what Pontiac is supposed to be... a performance brand, no? Now, let's think about what performance means... well, if we look at BMW (and we all want Pontiac to be a "cheap" BMW, right?), they have: RWD/AWD, V8 or V6 power (or V10), manual transmission offerings, sleek, tasteful lines, and high quality interiors. Now, let's see what BMW doesn't have: I4 power, FWD, cartoonish styling with 2 foot overhangs. I think the "Holdens" fit the description of "BMW" more than the "Pontiacs." The fact is the Holdens are more like Pontiacs than the "Pontiacs" so everyone should quit their bitching about them and realize that the "Pontiacs" suck and the "Holdens" are among the best cars GM makes.

The GTO and G8 may not be the most in-your-face cars, but name me one Pontiac from the last 30 years that looks better than either of them (besides the Solstice). And, on top of that, at least the rebadges are of damn good cars. Would you rather have a Cobalt-based G5? How about the Montana? Maybe you'd like a Equin, err, Torrent? How about the apparently stylish-because-it's-different Grand Prix (with it's 2 foot overhangs)? Maybe the old GA with more ribs than a cow was more your flavor? Or, what about that oh-so-bold and in-your-face Aztek? Now that was a looker. The fact is that the GTO and G8 are the best, most stylish Pontiacs of the last 30 years (besides Solstice, and they're definitely better vehicles than the Solstice, just not more stylish). So, let's all complain when GM makes good cars that have good styling, then we can go buy the old Pontiacs with an infinite amount of ribs, overhangs as long as the rest of the car, and in your-face-looks that made the Aztek the icon of ugliness. Sounds like a plan to me, a plan that adds up to 6.

Doesn't mean it wasn't a good-looking car. Possibly, but ask the people that bought them if they think they're worth every penny of the price. Can't argue with that, they're huge in California. It's funny that you say most non-GM people can't tell the difference between a GTO and a Cavalier but it's best market is one of GM's worst. Someting doesn't work there. The GTO sold better than the cheaper Trans Am... I think you should wait until we see what the G8 does. Then you might have to eat some crow.

Exactly. I read somewhere that the GTO actually sold better than the Trans Am. People don't realize that the Z/28 was nowhere close to $33k and the Mustang GT isn't either.

I thought it was just a concept before? Maybe not. It would appear the Sky is the favored world design.

Assuming I get more info on it, yes.

Wow, that is hideous. Might make a good meal for the GTO sometime if your cousin wants to race

I didn't like the Accord when I saw it at the autoshow (the concept version) so I'd go with the Malibu.

Well, the GTO is pretty loud. It idles at about 650rpm so it's not overly loud, but that's the nature of the beast. It's relatively quite at cruise, but pretty loud when it's opened up. I think it's pretty much a consensus that LSx engines are very refined, though.

I don't have a problem with the Wrangler having a rugged interior, but that doesn't mean it can't have a better design.

I would take a 335i over the new M3, even if they were the same price (which they won't be).

I can see them being mistaken for the other one from the side, but certainly not the front.

That is true, too, I remember when we got those pics from the video I thought it looked a bit Volvo-ish, too. The interior is not bad and is probably Ford's best recent effort, but how will this look in 3 years, when the vehicle has only been on the market for 2 years?

There is a 4.1L something on the way, but I don't know what. It would make sense that it would be a V6, though. Probably OHV. It's also going in the T900s.

He's saying that the competition will be even better in a year, which is true. The interior, while nice enough, is nothing amazing and if it was a Honda I'm guessing we'd be celebrating that it wasn't any better. I actually just noticed it looks a lot like the Maxima interior that came out, what, 5 years prior to the Flex?

You actually want to look at pictures of DCX interiors?

I drove the Alero for 22 months before I got the GTO, which I've had for 14 months (wow, seems much shorter, how time flies!). I'll keep it for a long, long time unless I find an '05/06 that is very inexpensive to trade up to, but I think it makes more sense to just throw a few mods on what I have and have the same or more power that I'd have for less money by trading up.

The new one is definitely better, but they both suck and it's not much of an improvement. Hell, the materials could very well be worse.

The more pics I see the more impressed I am. I still say the Acadia is better though.b

Hmm, maybe the Beat is the one that has the lead for production. I wondered why there were no interior pics of the others.

Toyota doesn't seem to understand things like this... They say, "Hmm, this is our most expensive SUV, so let's make it resemble the most expensive sedan" without realizing doing so makes it look odd.

Yeah, but they could have taken advantage of the rain, and been like "You can enjoy the sun one minute, and keep the nasty weather out the next." Of course, that would have involved not following a script, but I don't see why it couldn't be done.

The front of the Trax looks sort of cute in these pics, but it would appeal to women much more than men, I think. The Groove is the most masculine by far with it's aggressive front fascia, but I find the rest of it ugly. The Beat is obviously the most sporty and I think it would appeal to the most people, and is the only one I think as a whole is attractive. BTW, what's with the little green thing under the Trax in the last pic? EDIT: I see, they were throwing them around at the beginning and must not have picked them all up afterwards.