Northstar

GO ILLINI!

But it will fail because it gets poor fuel economy!

Awesome.

Unless you don't care what your car is like and just want a cheap car that's pretty big for the price. But yeah, if someone asked 100 people which one looked better, 100 would have to say the new one.

I sat in a 2LT today. I was pretty impressed. The interior could have been better, but it was very nice for a $22k car... it had leather/suede stuff and the door panels are better than the look in pictures. While they appear to be the same as the Aura, they were softer to the touch and much better in terms of graining than the Aura's. Still, they could be better, but they will be fine for most buyers, especially at $22k. It was much better than it looks in pictures, and while there are some seemingly misaligned panels (though everything on the center stack looked fine), they were aligned the same way on both sides, so I'm wondering if that's how they were intended to line up. The fit and finish was very good, better than any of them appeared in pictures (lots of misaligned panels). Exterior panel gaps were very, very small. All in all, I would give GM an A-. Improve the door panels (the rest of the materials were quite good... soft touch on the top of the dash), give it an integrated radio and HVAC system (the cutlines are aligned fine, but it would look better without them), have the 6-speed available from the start, and you have yourself quite possible the best car in the class. I haven't sat in a new Accord yet, but the Malibu is much better looking from the outside, and the interior has more style as well.

First 10!?! How many people live in this area and how many dealerships are there? 10 is a lot considering no one has been able to test drive one yet.

The G8 has basically a modified LS2 that's detuned and has AFM, and the 3.6 from GMNA. Sure it's called "Alloytec," but it was developed here and renamed there. The G8 GXP is coming and I assume it's going to have the LS3. The GTO had the LS1 and LS2. What's not American about them? Since I assume you missed my post earlier: What happens if/when Pontiac simply uses what is essentially Holden's platform (Zeta or Alpha) and builds a car designed and built in North America? Does this make it acceptable or American enough?

What happens if/when Pontiac simply uses what is essentially Holden's platform (Zeta or Alpha) and builds a car designed and built in North America? Does this make it acceptable or American enough? As for me, there is not a whole lot, I guess. There are quite a few vehicles I would purchase if I had the money and was looking for a vehicle in that segment. If I wanted a truck, it'd probably be a Sierra. A 7-seat SUV, Tahoe or Suburban (or Escalade/ESV). A 7-seat crossover, Acadia or Enclave or SRX (depending on how important that third row is). 5-seat compact crossover, the Vue. Compact car could quite possibly be an Astra. Midsize luxury sedan, probably the CTS. Sports car, the Z06. Family sedan, probably the G8. Roadster, a Sky Red Line (or Vette convert). And the list goes on beyond that, probably. However, cars I would actually drive myself: Maybe the CTS, maybe the G8, definitely the Corvette if I could afford it, and probably the Sky Red Line. There's nothing from GM has 2-doors, 4-seats (or 5), a nice interior, great handling, lots of power, etc., as the GTO does. Not one car. I guess if I absolutely HAD to get a new car and it HAD to be a GM, I'd get the Sky Red Line (Corvette is not very affordable to me). If I couldn't deal with absolutely no trunk (the GTO's is already very small, but at least I can throw 2-3 golf bags in it) and still couldn't afford a Corvette, either the G8 or CTS. The only cars that are on the market that really would suit my wants are the Mustang and soon the Challenger. The G37 would probably qualify as well. A 335Ci would also be awesome, but that's more expensive. Aside from other luxury makes, I can't really think of anything else that's on the market that has 2-doors, 4 or more seats, and is powerful and handles well. You have sport compacts like the Cobalt SS, but that's not what I want.

Sorry to hear that. My dealer's first CTS had this same problem. I'm not sure how they fixed it, but they must have, because they sold it. I would say contact your dealer, tell them it is having some noises and that you have heard other people have had the same problem, and see what they will do for you.

1. CTS 2. Acadia/Enclave (Acadia is better design, Enclave better materials, but they tie as a whole) 3. STS Platinum (design brings it down a good deal, but materials are there) 4. Yukon Denali Not counting price... I think the Astra, Malibu, Vue, and all T900s the cars listed above are very competitive in their segments.

Saturn will turn the corner, eventually. The fact is that the Aura is not class-leading, the Outlook is out-done by it's GM counterparts (though I'm guessing import-intenders may be more likely to buy it than the others, the Sky is already doing well, the Astra will sell out fast (low supply), the Vue is doing well... The next generation Outlook should perhaps be a little different than the other next-gen Lambdas. Perhaps it should be slightly smaller (more like a Pilot). The NG Aura looks pretty promising so far. With a lineup of Corsa, Astra, Aura, Sky, Vue, and Outlook, Saturn can do some serious damage. Honda didn't grow to the size it is today. The first gen Accord didn't sell in droves. The Civic didn't become the compact of choice overnight. The same thing can, and I believe will, happen with Saturn. We can't expect Saturn to sell 150k Auras, 200k Astras, 100k Outlooks, 200k Vues, and 100k Corsas overnight, though. Sales will continue to increase for quite some time.

Ah, I see what you mean. The net gain might be negative, but I don't have a problem with that. The GP sales to fleets are unneeded, anyways. The only way to really grow sales is to grow retail sales. Fleet sales aren't going to grow as a whole.

I'm not sure I understand your statement about the GP fleet sales? Anyways, here is where the numbers are from: http://www.fleet-central.com/af/stats2007/cars_web.pdf 9376 GPs were sold to retail customers for the first half of the 2007 MY. That's actually under 19k for the year, not 20k. Also, as you stated above, GM plans to keep the GP around when the G8 is here. I would assume that's for fleet sales only and to keep the plant running.

I think it's pretty ugly. I guess it's more aggressive than the current Vibe, at least. And the rear is hideous, IMO.

Fine, don't believe me about the GTO. Maybe you'll believe guionM, but I doubt it: Selling 30k G8s is pretty good for Pontiac if you actually think for a second and do 2 minutes of research. The GP was on pace for less than 20k retail sales for the year through 6 months. For it's replacement to do 30k retail sales would be a 50% increase. Since when is a 50% increase nothing to write home about? My opinion of smk is shared by many others, and if you would read all of his posts you would see how out of touch he is. The CTS isn't acceptable because it runs 0-60 in 5.8 instead of 5.5. I'd like to see him sit in a car that runs a 5.5 and then a car that runs a 5.8 and be able to tell the difference.

The 3-Series is 178.2 inches, a Civic is 176.7 inches. 1.5 inches is pretty close in size. A 528i starts at $44k. He is saying if you were to price a 528i and a CTS, the CTS would give you more car for the money. I can definitely see people who want to spend under $50k on a midsize sport sedan cross-shopping the two.

Bull$h!. All of it. The GTO did not fail. It sold quite well for it's price and segment. Better than Camaro SS + WS6, better than high level Mustangs. It just didn't sell the initial estimate of 18k/year. The new reviews of the CTS say it handles almost as well as a 335i, and Edmunds' test data says it pulls more G's on the skidpad and out-slaloms the 5er. There are so many differences between the GTO and G8 that you can't compare them. 2 doors vs 4 doors, a trunk vs no trunk, a V6 model available, cheaper price for the G8. You can't base the G8 on what the GTO did. GM could move 80k G8s if it had the capacity. It's a better car than the Charger which sells well over 100k. If the G8 is bland, the 5er is bland. Neither are bland. They're stylish by being sleek and having great proportions, not by having very bold styling like the Charger. Doesn't Dodge have the same image problems as Pontiac? They're having no problem selling Chargers. Oh, and how many times must you be told that MT said the Commodore SS-V handles like the old M5? Get some facts and quit spewing bull$h!, or you will be gone soon. We are tired of your baseless posts.

AWD helps 0-60 in some cases depending on tire spin... Your statement, "Plus that car is in it's 5th model year, although it had some upgrades along the way, the only major change is the engine. " is ridiculous. You're comparing acceleration times between two cars, yet the engine just got put in the car (even though it's old). Clearly, since the engine is new for '08 in the 5er, and the engine in new in the CTS for '08, the two can be compared regardless of how old the rest of the 5er is. The 535i was not available in 2004, so get your head out of your ass. I would be quite surprised if the M5 was able to reach 205mph. Perhaps it is because of the ridiculously high redline, but it weighs 4000lbs. FWIW, the Z06 did get tested over 200mph by C&D, I believe.

The 5er better feel worth the money over the CTS and G35 if it costs $15k more. I think what will eventually happen is the CTS will become more premium and more expensive and compete with the 5er and E-Class. When the Alpha car comes, Cadillac will have a true 3er/C-Class/etc car in both size and price, and the CTS will truly compete with the 5er/E-Class/etc in both size and price. That appears to be the plan, anyways. I am sure the 335i is more fun to drive. Equal power, a lot less weight, a lot smaller dimensions... much more toss-able. Again, this is why the CTS should be moving into the 5er class. However, Cadillac can't abandon the 3er market (not have something at the same price), and the CTS is the closest thing they have to that right now. When the Alpha comes, the CTS will finally be able to truly compete with the 5er, and Cadillac will finally have a 3er competitor.

Would it not be smarter (cost wise) to produce all Malibu's at Fairfax and produce the Aura at Orion instead? I guess now it doesn't make any difference, but if Orion is going to produce 100k Malibus (the Aura's initial target), it would seem that Fairfax would be able to produce an additional 100k Malibus if it wasn't producing the Aura.

I think AWD is fine if it's an option and not standard.

There is another G8 variant coming next year (GXP), the Solstice Targa starts production early '09, and the G6 is scheduled for a refresh for the '09 MY. The Torrent is becoming a GMC, the G5 will die when the new Cobalt comes out in mid-2009. Alpha appears to be a reality, and there is going to have to be something besides the Cadillac, and Pontiac is a natural fit. PCS is hoping Pontiac dies since Pontiac is becoming the American Holden. Whether he gets his wish or not remains to be seen, but I would guess he won't.

And that is why the Charger R/T and 300C failed, too, I assume? Those get 15/23, and they sold over 16k units last month. And for anyone who wants better MPG, the V6 will offer competitive MPG for a car of the G8's size. MPG is not going to make the G8 fail, sorry. Try again. A 360HP sedan that handles like a BMW and looks good with a price tag under $30k is not going to fail. Pontiac's days as a company that pushes ancient, FWD-based sedans with 3 foot overhangs and piss-poor handling are numbered! :AH-HA_wink:

Nice job comparing apples to oranges. Let me compare apples to apples. Do you expect Cadillac to not only outperform a vehicle very few other cars have, but also do so at a big disadvantage due to weight? Why not compare a BMW of similar weight? Also, you're weight distribution is wrong. The CTS is 52.5% front, 47.5% rear. 535i/CTS DI 0-60 5.5/5.8 (C&D tested) 1/4 mile 14.0/14.6 (C&D) Skidpad .89g/.85g Slalom 65.3/67mph (Edmunds - C&D's track was wet) 60-0 113/109ft (Edmunds) MPG 22.5(highway?)/18 (Edmunds) (both are rated 17/26 EPA) I'd say Cadillac did a very respectable job.

The Enclave with every option is under $46k. An ML350 without NAV, rear DVD (only option being leather -- is $48k). In addition, the Enclave has 3 rows of seats and is much bigger. An RX is close in price, but again, 2 rows of seats. If you want a 3-row Lexus SUV, a GX is more starting out than a loaded Enclave. The Enclave is a much better value than either of those. And I'm sure no one will care if its a Buick when they see that it's better looking than their Lexus or Mercedes. The CTS does have bluetooth as an option, it just happens to be dealer-installed. A loaded CTS without AWD is $46435. A 335i without Active Cruise control, power rear sunshade, or Active Steering is $50720. That's over a $4k difference. You aren't going to spend $4k on oil changes and regular maintenance.