Northstar

I don't see a Pontiac Boxster selling very well, even if it is "only" $40k. Pontiac = Alpha sedan, coupe, Solstice, stretched Alpha sedan

I'd rather see Buick get something like that. Pontiac can't sell something that expensive. A Zeta Buick "4 door coupe" like the CLS would be perfect, actually. Wouldn't compete with the CTS that way, which could potentially happen if it wasn't somewhat of a unique product niche.

I can't come up with a legitimate 8 models for Cadillac without resorting to something silly like the X6 or 1-Series, but sub-CTS, CTS, STS/DTS, XLR, 2 crossovers, and something like the Z4/SLK would be 7.

Buick can have performance, but I feel it should be in the form of a sedan that's bigger than what Pontiac should offer; something on Zeta. Let Pontiac be small to small-midsize cars and Buick can be small-midsize (EPII or DeltaII) to large (LWB EPII, maybe Zeta... which would be performance-oriented).

If the Cadillac Alpha has a coupe, as it should to fight the 3-Series, then the two will be in a pretty similar price range in a market that isn't very big. Giving Pontiac something that's not premium and thus significantly cheaper will allow for a much bigger market to attract buyers from. You may be able to make them look different enough from each other to say they are "differentiated," but they're going to be competing for the same small customer base. One of the most important and telling parts (to me at least), of GM's plan that it presented to Congress is that GM will consists of 40 models, 11 trucks/SUVs, and 29 crossovers/cars. I'm going to guess GMC gets one crossover which leaves 28 cars/crossovers between Buick, Cadillac, Chevy, and Pontiac. Your Buick model range consists of 9 models, which would mean Chevy, Cadillac, and Pontiac are left with 19 models. There is no way that is going to happen. I figure Pontiac gets 3 models, possibly 4; so figure Chevy+Cadillac get 16 models. Chevy alone has: Corvette, Camaro, Aveo, Cobalt, Malibu, Impala, HHR, Traverse, Equinox, Gamma-based vehicle, Volt, and I would assume a crossover below the Equinox. That's 12 models, leaving Cadillac 4. No way Cadillac only gets 4 models outside of the Escalade. A lineup of either SWB EPII or a DeltaII vehicle, LWB EPII, TE and Enclave, and perhaps one other car is what Buick should have (this matches the number of models Acura has); with Pontiac having 3 models, GMC one crossover, and Chevy 12 cars/crossovers, that leaves Cadillac 8 models, which may be one too many, I think 7 models is about right for Cadillac. Basically my point is there's no way Buick gets 9 models, not if Chevy+Buick+Cadillac+Pontiac+GMC X-Over(s) accounts for 29 models.

You have at least one too many cars stuffed into one area. Either a Delta II based sedan on or a SWB EPII, but not both; Chevy doesn't even have that many cars stuffed between two sizes. I'd be in favor of giving Buick SWB and LWB EPII sedans. I think Pontiac should be getting the niche vehicles you listed. If Buick has an Alpha, how are they going to differentiate it enough vs. the Cadillac Alpha without making it cheap? The Electra is an interesting idea, but if Cadillac is getting a Volt also, then again, Buick doesn't need one as well.

Isn't it a little early to be worrying about what gas prices will be when the Volt comes out? That's 2 years away.

How are small, 4-cylinder cars consider niche cars? That's a huge market, not a niche market. Small, RWD, 4-cylinder cars would be a niche market.

I skimmed through quickly... GM plans to have 29 cars/crossovers and only 11 "trucks" come 2012. I'm trying to think what those trucks would be. Knowing we will have only GMC, Chevy, and Cadillac offering trucks (or at least I would assume so). Currently, those brands only have 12 trucks. That doesn't make much sense to me. Silverado, Sierra, Avalanche, Colorado, Canyon, Tahoe, Suburban, Yukon, Yukon XL, Escalade, ESV, EXT, I believe are the only truck-based vehicles currently available besides the T360s and Hummers. "Crossovers" don't count. Perhaps the Canyon is going away... Either way, it will be much more fun guessing the 29 cars (down from 31 today, but it sounds as if Saab isn't in the 29 and Pontiac's share will be reduced).

I like this plan for the most part. I read that Buick would become Opel instead of Saturn; I'd rather Saturn have the Corsa, Astra, Sky, Vue and Buick get the SWB and LWB EPII's and a TE, but I suppose GM thinks it should make one brand (Buick) have a strong full model line, rather than two brands have strong half model lines. Pontiac = Solstice, small Alpha, midsize Alpha, I hope. Apparently GMC isn't on the chopping block, which makes sense and doesn't at the same time. The brand doesn't cost much to make products for, but at the same time the products are direct overlap with Chevy trucks. The plan clearly is built around the dealers, if you think about it. It's easy enough to deal with the less than 500 Saturn, Saab, and Hummer dealers. It would be much harder to deal with the probably 1500 dealers that sell either Pontiac, Buick, GMC, or some combination of them.

Yes, as someone pointed out, that was sarcasm (see the rolleyes smiley). As for the Corvette, fuel economy has more to do with weight than engine size and power most of the time, hence the Corvette gets good mileage as it is quite light. Notice that a basically identical engine thrown into a 4000lb sedan (see G8 GT or GXP, CTS-V vs. ZR-1) doesn't get too good of mileage because the cars are so hefty.

It's funny how there's a push towards smaller, more fuel efficient cars, and yet the G8 outsells the Astra (though by very little).

I don't believe it. If these cars stay RWD there is no way they can beat CAFE standards Good job Chrysler, hopefully the interiors are better this time.

Tomorrow will also tell the tale of GM's sales numbers in November. I predict another terrible month and bigger incentives in December. Considering the economy, of the lack of any deals that are very impressive, GM probably shot itself in the foot in November.

BPG could be very strong if GM had any money to invest. Sports car: Solstice (coupe, convert) Small car: Alpha Pontiac (sedan, coupe) Small Midsize: Buick on SWB EPII, like TSX (I don't think Buick needs a small car the size of the Cruze) Midsize: LWB Alpha Pontiac (sedan only) Large Midsize: Buick on LWB EPII, like TL X-Overs: 5-pass Buick (TE), 7-pass GMC (Acadia) Truck: Sierra Give GMC something fun like the Wrangler That's 9 models, two of which have 2 body styles, and nothing should really compete with anything from Chevy or Cadillac besides maybe the two X-Overs. Then if Saturn has to stay just import small Opels. Corsa, Astra, Sky, and VUE should be the Saturn lineup. Bringing the Insignia is competing with Buick. That'd be almost no overlap, and technically the Saturns wouldn't cost anything to make, or at least very little since they're already Opels. The Buicks could be shared with China, and Holden could get versions of the Pontiac Alphas. Really the only things listed here that isn't intended to be a world product are the GMCs. Sierra shares plenty of volume with Sierra, and the Acadia would share plenty of volume with the Traverse, so really the Solstice and Sky and the GMC Wrangler are the only products that would cost much to make, and the Solstice/Sky platform just needs to be fine tuned, and the Wrangler can just be made from GMT355. These 4 brands should cost GMNA next to nothing outside of what it already plans to make for the rest of the world. Chevy, Cadillac are also becoming global except for T900s. Saab is probably going to stay and be under GME control anyways, so they might as well be imported and sold here, too. Get rid of Hummer.

I predict Saab will sell about 5 of these.

Well, if GM is reduced to Chevy and Cadillac, GM has more chance of getting anyone to buy their product than they do if GM is reduced to nothing at all... just sayin'.

No, I understand how it works, I've been through one; took about a minute or so of my time, 45 seconds or so of that was waiting for other cars to pass through. You misunderstood what I said. That's exactly what makes you look like such an asshole. They pull EVERY CAR OVER, NOT JUST YOU!!! Then you act as if you're above everyone and act like you shouldn't be subjected to the same checkpoint as everyone else... it's not as if you were driving along like every other car perfectly fine and for whatever reason they just decided to pull ONLY YOU over, they pulled EVERYONE OVER. Big difference. If they pulled only you over while you were driving perfectly fine, you would reason to have a beef with it, but that was not the case.

Another example of your classless attitude. You make a thread essentially bitching about how you had to defend your rights as a US citizen and then rip on someone not from the US. And, what's more, all this is coming from someone who spends a lot of their time living somewhere BESIDES THE US. Wow, way to make yourself look even more like an ass; I didn't think you could go any farther. And if all you were doing was standing up for your rights, then why are you so mad about having the right to do so? Why aren't you happy that you could do so?

Exactly. It's not like PCS was driving along just fine, not speeding, staying perfectly in his lane and the police officer decided to turn on his lights and stop him for no reason. That would be a total asshole move by the officer; instead, PCS decides he was too cool to be stopped and treated like every other lowly person and decides to be an ass himself.

That's not what I said at all, I said it's you're "I'm better than everyone else" attitude. Why don't you read what I wrote? You're arrogant and think you're above the standards of everyone else, and you look like a prick with how you act towards a "lowly" police officer. I'm sure you'd be really mad you were stopped if you found out a motorists traveling the opposite direction of you was found to be highly intoxicated a few minutes prior to you crossing paths with that motorist and therefore didn't cause an accident with you or anyone else. It's a traffic checkpoint and it keeps you and other motorists potentially safe from harm, and probably delays your trip by less than 3 minutes if you don't feel you're above such a checkpoint and act like a total snob.

If you knew someone who had been killed or severely injured by a drunk driver I'm sure you'd be soooo upset about having checkpoints to check to make sure no one has had too much to drink Maybe you shouldn't act like such a pompous ass all the time and as if you're somehow above the law that everyone else abides by... you know what the officer meant when he asked if you had had anything to drink, no need to be a smart ass and say you'd been drinking water. Perhaps your attitude is shared around GM and that's why GM is now in such bad shape. I wonder how many GM employee's go around with an "I'm better than everyone else" attitude, when in fact they aren't and just make themselves look like pricks.

I briefly drove an SSR to the gas station and back when I worked at the dealership, and it actually drives pretty well for how large it is, but it's too flashy for most people, I think. Plus, it's not as sporty as most convertibles and gets very poor fuel mileage.

I saw my first two Challengers last night at a dealer. It is HUGE. And $45k is rather ridiculous. I realize it has great performance and such, but the Camaro is a much better deal and has more power.

To some degree it is GM's own fault if it is supplier issues. GM ought to have anticipated a high take rate on such an option and planned accordingly when it gave the supplier its estimate of how many seats it would need.