Northstar

THIS thread made me decide to start a poll. It's rather simple: vote for which brand you think should get the second Lambda minivan (besides the Chevy). It seems many people think Buick or Saturn would be a better fit, and those are the only two options besides GMC as I think everyone agrees Pontiac should not have a van and Cadillac and Saab don't either. So, vote away! This WILL be sent to GM.

I think a Buick off TE once the BRX and Saab pay for the platform would be a good idea. Buick should get something more premium than Theta, IMO.

Nice find. It appears this one has some wood, whereas the other one we saw didn't have any. I really like how the wood just sort of accents the metal on the door panels.

I think Buick should probably have it as well, as GMC and Chevy are too similar if they're the only ones getting minivans. However, I'm not entirely sure that BPG really needs one at all with the Enclave and Acadia. Why does the article say BPG is growing? At least BP is downsizing, and GMC isn't growing much.

I think Acura is shooting a little too high for Pontiac. I think if GM makes this "small, RWD platform" then Pontiac needs an entry-level sedan and maybe coupe off of it to attract young buyers, the Solstice, G6 or Grand Prix, and then the GTO as the flagship. Basically, they would all be aimed at younger buyers, while Buick would aim to attract those "graduating" from Pontiac and looking to move up market, basically middle-aged people.

See, the GTO wasn't marketed as a luxury vehicle though. Actually, I think part of the reason the GTO didn't sell well was that it wasn't marketed hardly at all when it came out. I think I saw a commercial for it maybe 3 times. I do agree with you on Pontiac's image, and this is why Lutz said both Buick and Pontiac were damaged brands. However, I fail to see how Buick would better off selling a sporty vehicle than Pontiac based simply on this. Look at the Solstice - when Pontiac puts out something like that it sells fine (well done vehicle, marketed well) and people put the Pontiac image aside. Could this be done for Buick? Probably, but I think it's easier to do for Pontiac. As I addressed in the post above, the Montana actually sold better than the Terraza, and the Torrent and Rendezvous are both selling at about the same rate (Rendezvous is currently 2k vehicles ahead, but I'm guessing with more fleet since it's old - still, it's doing well for being so old). I don't know what vehicles GMC and Buick have shared except the Envoy and Rainier, and the Envoy outsold the Rainier by a huge margin. Well, in this case GM is stuck between a rock and a hard place I fear. If it's trying to sell the two brands together, it either has to give Pontiac the sporty vehicles or Buick, and it fits Pontiac's image better. As I said above, maybe Buick can get a NG Lucerne coupe and (maybe) convert. Also, I think it's possible for Buick to make exciting sedans... people get excited about the GS, 5er, E-Class, A6, etc. I think part of the problem is GM is still using the G- and W- bodies which are terrible for modern design because of the hard points they have. I agree and disagree. Buick can have something larger like a Lucerne coupe, but if Pontiac has a GTO and Buick a GNX, both are going to target the same buyer market, and they're just going to be fighting over the same sales for the most part. A few who would not consider a Buick would still buy the GTO if the GNX wasn't made, and vice versa. The response to the Solstice was still better. It was Camaro-like. Everyone was still drooling over the Solstice more than a year and a half after the concept debuted and before we knew it was going to be produced. The excitement for the Velite died down well before that. This is the problem GM faces. If it can only afford to do one Zeta coupe for BP, who does it give it to? If it can only afford to do one Zeta sedan, ask the same question. I think it would give one to Buick (Lucene), and one to Pontiac (GTO).

Ok, but how easily is that going to be turned around? Well, I guess I should have said only based on price. Sure, a $10k Sunfire is going to have piss-poor materials, and a $20k Century is going to be better, but neither had good materials, IMO. This may be, but what if GM does studies and finds it can sell 100k of the Pontiacs and only 70k of the Buicks? It wouldn't make much sense to make the Buicks unless the profit margin is going to be a lot higher. Buick definetly needs a RWD sedan, and will get it in the form of the NG Lucerne, so maybe they can just make a cost-effective Lucerne coupe above the GTO (if there is another one). I think that could work nicely, actually, because the GTO would appeal to the younger buyers and the Baby Boomers might be drawn more to the larger Lucerne coupe. In the case of the Rendezvous, yes, but the Terraza and Rainier were not well recieved. I think a Buick TE would be great, maybe it will get one once the Cadillac and Saab absorb the costs. How the Aztek got approved we will never know. Anything would have done better than it. The Terraza only sold 20k units in all of 2005. The Relay sold slightly less than 16k... after fleet sales I think the Relay might have sold better, but it doesn't really matter since they both sold like crap. The Montana outsold the Terraza by 7k units. GMC has done well selling Denali's, which would be considered in Buick's territory, I think. Pontiac has never really tried to do anything that's too premium except for the Bonneville. The last half of this is true, but the Torrent is doing pretty well, and not even Toyota could sell a CSV. I don't think GMC would go down if the other two did, because it doesn't rely on the other two attracting people into its showroom for sales. I wonder how many people came to look at an Envoy or one of the last Jimmys and ended up taking home a Rendezvous? Or, how many came to look at an Envoy and drove off in a Rainier? Probably more than those who came to see a Rendezvous or Rainier and drove off in a Envoy. Currently, there is not a GTO or RWD sedan on the books for Pontiac. Buick does have one (NG Lucerne). Unless Pontiac is getting Holdens, I have not seen a program code for a Pontiac Zeta anywhere. All three can survive. As I illustrated with the GTO and "Lucerne coupe," both Buick and Pontiac can have coupes if they target distinctly different buyers. Pontiac's Zeta sedan (if it gets one) will not interfere with the NG Lucerne, and the LaCrosse will be trageting a much different buyer than it's Epsilon II cousin G6. Now, is GMC getting an extra product that it shouldn't be? Yes, I think so. But, I don't think the GMC Theta is going to be premium enough for Buick anyways, Buick would need something off TE.

A 30 year old will definetly look at a Pontiac before a Buick. I know plenty of people in their 30s who would never be caught in a Buick but would drive a Pontiac. I don't think neighbors would be laughing at you driving off in your Solstice, rather, I think neighbors who have a Solstice would be laughing at someone taking their Sunday drive in a Century. Owning a Solstice would make your neighbors pretty jealous of you, actually, something no Buick can say. The Reatta didn't change all that, neither did the Riv. For some reason, no one seems to understand that people looking for sporty coupes don't even have Buick on their radar. Buick was just as cheap as Pontiac on materials (especially for the price) until the Lucerne and now Enclave. The GTO has better materials than any Buick I've been in except the Lucerne. Also, there's nothing uncomfortable about the GTO. It has better seats than any Buick will probably ever have, handles like a dream, and has a smooth ride except over big bumps and potholes. I think you pretty much just described my experience with the GTO, you can win 95% of redlight races and still have a comfortable ride father down the road. The GTO is a pretty good combination of luxury and sport; it's pretty comparable to the G35. So, Pontiac does have that ability. In fact, anyone has the ability to make luxury and sport, that's a rather odd statement... Kia could make luxury and sport, but no one would care. I think the same thing sort of holds true to Buick... they can make something sporty, but I don't think anyone would care. What are you talking about? Sure, people drooled over the Velite, but the second part is completely false... far more people drooled over the Solstice. Buick would not be doomed if it made it's past products attractive to younger buyers. I fail to see why Buick can't attract younger buyers without such a vehicle. Younger buyers are all over Lexus's vehicles, and note that they don't have a single coupe, and only one convertible, and it's $60k. If Buick can't attract younger buyers with it's other vehicles, the vehicles that will make up the bulk of sales, it seems like a waste to give them such a vehicle if it's going to be the only one that attracks any younger buyers anyways.

I know, that's why I asked if the MDX's numbers would drop too. When have we seen an SAE-certified number that has two even numbers like 300 and 275? The Z06 has it, but that's underrated still even with the SAE certification.

My dad really likes the Aura from what he's seen (hasn't driven one, though) but he says he won't buy one until they offer if with the rear DVD system.

They never said they hated them being quiet when cruising, they said they hated them being quite when you floor them. As for me, I would rather be able to hear the growl of the LS1 underhood even under moderate acceleration than having it be quiet. I usually drive with the windows down though, so it's not too hard to hear the engine and excellent exhuast note.

Well it seems to me they just made up the RL's 300hp figure

If Buick is going to try to attract younger customers, I don't think a coupe from $30-40k is really going to work, because not that many younger buyers can afford to spend that much on a car. Also, the problem is not that younger buyers wouldn't like a vehicle like that, it's that it says Buick on it. Younger buyers would much rather drive a Pontiac than a Buick, so that's why Pontiac is probably the front-runner for a vehicle like that. One final thought: even if Buick gets such a vehicle, and it sells to younger people (the few that can afford it), it's not even going to sell in very large numbers anyways. I would think 1500 per month would be optimistic, especially considering the GTO didn't do that much on average. I think the PBG channel needs to work something like this: Pontiac: sporty, and targets youth. Buick: More understated but still stylish, targets those moving up from Pontiac. GMC: Basically what it is now.

Get real and look at the sales numbers. They PROVE that there is a market for such vehicles.

I saw a Solstice last night... there aren't thay many nice cars on campus. So far I've seen two M3s, but other than that nothing too great. I also saw either a super exotic that I've never even seen a picture of, or some sort of kit car. The front reminded me of the F40, but I don't think the rear looked like one. It was also dark so it was difficult to see much detail

If that's not how GM thinks Buick should be focused, then I guess that's why the other two would get the product. However, it's not like Pontiac is getting any more product that Buick in the coming years. I think GM wants to keep GMC strong, so if it needs a CUV to stay strong, GMC's probably going to get it. It would make a difference for GMC buyers to have a CUV with the Buick badge on it if the GMC buyers didn't give a damn about Buick (the younger buyers that the CUV is likely targeting). If GM thinks that GMC will sell more Theta CUVs than Buick, then obviously they're going to give it to GMC, and if there's still a case for a Buick as well, maybe Buick will get one.

The V6 does sound really good. Isn't the STS already screwed? I think I'll be able to make NAIAS this upcoming year now that I won't have school and/or basketball.

The interior looks nice except for the million buttons. The exterior is not going to win any beauty contest. Is the HP SAE certified or will it drop 10-15 horses like the RL did? All in all, I think I'd take the roomy and much better-looking Enclave for (probably) thousands less.

Eh, that's rather gross, especially the wheels.

I chopped this up pretty quick:

I was going to guess the H1, but I think that's been sold for more than 6 years.

Too keep the greenies happy?

They have a point about the trunk, and some things are place in odd places, such as the cup holders and window switches. I think giving the Solstice first place says enough about how good it is, and everyone will dismiss the couple shortcomings because "it beat a BMW for 60% of the price!"

It looks pretty nice, but too many people will say it's not aggressive enough a la the GTO. They'd probably be able to sell all that they can import (like 20k), but I don't really see the need, Pontiac should get it's own unique vehicle.

I thought they wwere dropping the Solara?