Cananopie

What bothers me is not that the tail lights stopped being horizontal but that the tail lights stopped being horizontal BECAUSE GM wants to save costs. If they wanted to try a new styling that's fine- but because the sheetmetal can be used for the Grand Prix or the LaCrosse without a thing being done to it- that will only hurt GM sales. Didn't they realize this when they uniformed all the engines?

The LaCrosse isn't a bad car for what it's trying to accomplish but other members from Cheers and Gears have given me some good ideas of what I'd like to see from Buick as well as a few thoughts of my own. The first thing is distinction. This is what I mean: All fairly new General Motors vehicles... all 4 cars have extremely similar looking lights... sure- the cobalt and the G6 share a much more similar design to eachother and the LaCrosse and the Grand Prix share a more similar design. Generally- same size and close enough to the same shape. Next- look at how the whole back end is in all 4 vehicles. Underneath the lights on all 4 is the similar smooth drop off to the bumper and in all 4 there is a harsh 90 degree angle at the lip of the trunk. They don't even TRY to make the back ends of these new vehicles dissimilar anymore. I don't know how to change the Pontiac or the Chevy, I'm not as big of a fan of them but someone here on C&G said Buick should have long thin horizontal lights that cut across the trunk. The LeSabre, Regal, Century, and PA lights were too bulbous and looking dated- thinning them out would give Buick a very new, unique, and totally individualized style- EVEN if the trunk lip looked the same as all the rest of the GM vehicles (even though they should change that too) but GM has a problem with cutting the sheetmetal even SLIGHTLY different for the LaCrosse and Grand Prix- and that is just going to hurt sales. Period. Why does GM insist on that stupid GM badge when things like this are GM badge enough? The second thing- power. Even with no design changes on the LaCrosse if they would've dropped in a more powerful upper-end engine Motor Trend, Car and Driver, every car critic would automatically drop the LaCrosse as "another mediocre grandpa vehicle from Buick" to "The essence of the Grand National" or "This isn't what your Grandpa was buying 5 years ago." I'm not saying Buick needs to be irrationally powerful and I understand Pontiac, Chevy, Cadillac, and Saturn deserve powerful vehicles as well... but right now is the time for BUICK to have a powerful vehicle in a class it leads in. This doesn't have to be the LaCrosse but the fastest way to drop a Grandpa image is to make sure the top line of all your vehicles goes 0-60 in 6 seconds or less. But Buick DOES deserve a vehicle, whether it be the LaCrosse (which I don't think it should be) the Lucerne, or a future coupe/convertible that has power that isn't ECLIPSED not just by EVERY other GM company, but ANY other GM company for its class. Buick needs a powerful vehicle for GM, and it doesn't have to steal the thunder of the GTO or the Corvette or the CTS-V or the Sky or any other vehicle- but give SOMETHING to Buick and let all the magazines and reviewers say "Wow, Buick has a FAST car" If Buick had a style that looked Buick (look at the Velite, Bengal, LaCrosse concept, these are all ways Buick should've gone and never did) with at least 1 car with extraordinary HP and torque Buick would be more than in the game. and BECAUSE of BUICK doing this Pontiac would get more distinction too and they already have the powerful vehicle. This is what GM needs, not just Buick. What Buick has down is reliability, quality build, and very good base vehicles and these need to stay with the changes in Buick. The interior quality has been upped but two-toned interiors are exactly what Buick needs as well. Allow a loud interior every once and a while- like black seats and wheel, white everything else, the blue and taupe on the Lucerne's a start, but why can't it be REAL blue and white? That would be classy. And something people would talk about- not everyone would like it but not everyone likes Buick now and now they're just boring. Also Buick should have a couple loud exterior colors too. Not 6 different shades of gray but a solid blue, or red, or maybe even green. One that catches peoples eyes- Buicks used to do that and other car companies still do it- it's not dated nor is it untraditional to Buick- so do it. Granted none of those things are about pimping out the LaCrosse specifically... but they're improvements that GM can do to pimp out Buick- as the guy said in there- they don't know what people want.

My parents just bought a LaCrosse a week ago and the dealer told my brother the Lucerne should be in within a couple weeks. (But I would see it before I would believe it)

Does the LaCrosse look different to anyone else? I SWEAR something is different in the headlights.

I know my response is a little late but this is what I have to say and I'd like to see anyone logically argue with it. #1. The LeSabre has used the 3.8 liter engine as its base and ONLY engine for well over a decade. The LeSabre has ALSO been the best selling fullsize sedan in America for (I believe) over a decade as well... So why would its replacement just say "Oh, screw this venerable engine- it's too dated." The LeSabre had only 160 HP in the early 90s, it has only become more powerful with time. A 6 cyl reliable engine might be underpowered for maybe 6 people's full sized sedans on this board but for millions of Americans it wasn't just not underpowered- it was the preferred choice... PLUS you want power- buy the CXS cheapos! Pontiac is the one whose supposed to put a lot of power in even their cheapest cars- not Buick. #2. I can't believe anybody has DARED complain about the price! The projected price by Motor Trend of the '06 LaCrosse in their October 2006 issue was $36,000-$43,000. That's right! The Lucerne TOPS OUT and the BASE assumed price by Motor Trend! I was at LEAST expecting it to start at $30k. Everyone expected the CXS to be abou $40k! Let me give you an idea at how good of pricing the Lucerne is: Motor Trend would be correct in their prediction on the CX Lucerne IF you wanted an base Aveo with it. Yea- you could by ANOTHER CAR by how much cheaper the Lucerne is to its prediction. You people need to let off on Buick. This is something you just can't argue with. They hardly moved the price up from the current LeSabre. They did an amazing job with pricing.

That may be true- but if you were writing a professional article I'm pretty sure you wouldn't mess it up.

You're right Flybrian. It's plain and simple. GM needs to give its subdivisions more air to breathe and allow them to get themselves a personality. Something unique that isn't what the other GM brands or other competitive car brands are doing. All of GM needs to do this.

Is there any more information thats pertinent to Buick other than Zeta is definitely revived (which we knew) when you subscribe? Because all the unsubscribed version says is GM is bringing back the Zeta program. And the heck with dealing with all the subscription bullshit if someone could be kind enough to give a non-plagarized version of whats said in there. Thanks a lot in advance.

I read that article when it came up on google news for Buick. It's interesting not just for Buick but for all of GM. There is a mention of the Rendezvous replacement in the beginning.

Well we went to a different dealer and my brother and both my parents and I drove a cardinal red CXS. It had almost everything aside from chrome wheels and the chrome appearance package. It was a 2005 which is what my parents want to buy a 2005 Buick because of the employee discount pricing. I loved the 3.6 liter engine, it picked up a lot faster than my Regals 3.8 (though it has 40 more horsepower). It's a good engine. I loved the iterior and my parents liked it a lot too... it's not that they dont want it, they're just not sure if they want to wait another year to see the Lucerne. They like the year-end savings you get and it will be their first brand new car. We're going back to the first dealer to try the CXL, it's that gold color, I saw one today and didnt mind they color-- bu the red, blue, or black would be by far the best. I'll keep you updated on the final decision.

First, I wholeheartedly agree that you are entitled to your opinion...that's what makes this board fun...however, I was not taking the Accord's 'side' (in fact, if you read my post carefully for ALL of its content, you would notice that I work for a co. that sells GM product!) Now that that's out of the way...it seems we basically agree. Buick's product is not what is should or could be. I concede that many of the improvements have made the LaCrosse a vastly better car than its predecessor. I don't speak as a hater. I've been a car nut my whole life, I've owned or lived with 100's of vehicles, most used and from every manufacturer. I get a different car every 2 weeks from work, so I've literally seen it all. GM, Ford, Nissan, Chrysler, Hyundai and many others have some products that are sub-par: fit and finish, mechanical issues at low mileage, poor design and function, etc... The LaCrosse is better than average in many areas: reliability (if past experience is a guide), good ride (if you're not pushing the car) and decent workmanship. But it leads its class in zero categories and is not roomy for its size (as an old architecture, it needs more room for tech, safety and structure to meet or exceed new standards), nor is the Taurus meets Sonata (old) meets Jag design fresh or interesting (although it is unoffensive). Again, while your spirited defense of Buick is well intended (and respected on my part) it fails to acknowlege that the competition has moved on. The game is competitive and GM is just not getting it done. They wasted Billions on side projects and foreign jobs...it should have gone to a Buick equivalent of the Sigma architecture of Caddy or any one of a number of projects that would pull GM ahead of the pack instead of following the leader. [post="11780"][/post] [/quote] I did notice you earned your revenue from GM when I did post but it does not change the fact that when most people say anything about Buick the first thing they have to say is always negative, always ignoring anything positive. I'm only spirited in my defense because the LaCrosse isn't a bad car, but you're right- it doesn't lead in anything. We do agree for the most part, but from what the Regal was to what the LaCrosse is to what the LaCrosse replacement should be I have no problem with the LaCrosse how it is now so long as they get a little more... interesting with the next version of the LaCrosse. Buick was heavily damaged in the last decade with the lack of care GM gave it... and the LaCrosse and Lucerne is no $3 billion worth of Buick product (what ever happened to that) but its the first time Buick has been able to lift up from the slow downward spiral they were taking. Giving the LaCrosse a million different options and types and extroverted chancy styling could've killed Buick-- like Oldsmobile. For what Buick is climbing out of it will be a slow journey because GM needs to recognize this company they've let alone and forgotten about for so long needs attention too. The LaCrosse was the first real step towards that and I'm proud of what Buick could do with it. It's important to know that even though the LaCrosse doesnt lead in class in any particular thing, it has more than most every other car out there at the same time. The conservative styling and lack of excitement are its only real downpoints.

My parents went to the Buick dealership today because my mothers LeSabre is reaching about 50k and want to trade it in before the value starts decreasing more rapidly. With the end of the year models they are eligible for the GM employee discount and there were 2 cars that it came down to. When they went there they wanted another LeSabre, I told them to get the LaCrosse but my mother didn't seem like she wanted a smaller vehicle but when she came home today she was considering one. There was a brand new 2005 LeSabre with some decent options including leather seats and dual climate control but no Driver Information Center or compass and such. I wish I had more details but I wasn't there and of course she doesn't remember everything. And there was also a LaCrosse CXL that wasn't at the dealer today but was owned by an old lady who bought the car, drove it for 400 miles, then the doctor told her she couldnt drive and is going to sell the car back to the dealer. This car has leather seats, a Driver Information Center, a compass, dual climate control, I assume automatic dimming mirrors, etc etc... pretty much the works, when it comes down to it, with all the discounts and the trade-in both vehicles will run her about $15k. She was leaning towards the LeSabre but now she is interested in the LaCrosse- her main concern seems to be the space (which I dont think she needs all the space in the LeSabre, and at the same time I don't think theres a world of difference in the space in the LaCrosse and the LeSabre). She only has 1 kid who'll ever actually ride in the back seat because I know the rear legroom is an issue with the LaCrosse, and he's 10 years old. She is worried mainly about the space for packing on vacation. My question to you is this: Which would you pick given her situation and why, be as detailed as you wish. And I'd also like you to comment on the fact that here in Western New York we are one of the largest GM loyal areas in the country yet this high volume, exclusive Buick dealer says that their dealership has ordered no CXS trim LaCrosses because the 3.6 engine is too new and experimental- do you agree with what this dealer is doing? What are your thoughts on that? Personally I'd like her to get the LaCrosse but if your opinions sway the other way I may change my mind. The only negative I see on the LaCrosse is that it's a first year vehicle so none of the bugs are worked out if there are any. But otherwise the LeSabre seems less exciting especially because of the less options. I dont think the space is that much of a difference either.

Bimmer- it's perfect. When can you begin production? haha

turbo- I don't have anything against you in particular but there were too many broad generalizations you made for me to think you've been paying too much attention to the LaCrosse. I look at the Accord and try and see where you say Buick is emulating it but I just don't see it. The LaCrosse's interior is no more similar to that accord interior than the Ford Five Hundred or numerous other cars. You feel the Accords center stack flows into the console so well... I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. The LaCrosse interior just looks so much better to me and I can not see where you say it looks like a copycat of the Accord and in the past I say Buick used materials that were cheaper but I really think the LaCrosse interior looks a hell of a lot better than the Accord's. Those large buttons don't look high quality on the Accord, they make it look goofy in my opinion. There are interiors on other cars that I would say surpass the LaCrosses but that Accord is not one of them. Of course interior is a fairly large portion a matter of opinion. Opinions on what makes a seat comfortable etc etc are all just that- opinions. I have sat in neither the Accord or the LaCrosse and could not tell you which has a more comfortable seating arrangement- but even if I could that is just a matter of opinion. And maybe you could tell me what materials are in the LaCrosse that aren't as good as the Accord because I see very quality materials in the car. I honestly feel the LaCrosse is an incredibly classy car- especially when you can get one for in between $20k and $30k. Though it does run a couple grand higher than the Accord a lot of this "higher quality" that you don't believe is there, but I definitely see it there (once again, specifics please-- you agree with all the pros I gave but no specific cons on what materials are poor quality) you can get in LaCrosses cheaper than a decent portion of Accords. As for the platform it upsets a lot of people. But the Epsilon wouldn't be right for the LaCrosse, it's too small and it's a much lighter platform. A light Buick to me feels wrong. I'm not entirely sure whats wrong with the proportions, I like it- it has a longer look to it, most of the cars today, especially Japanese ones look very square. But I agree that the LaCrosse could've been more innovative looking- it's not a design miracle we all can agree but there are marketing reasons for this. In order for Buick to step forward and not die like Oldsmobile they need to not radically change their vehicles overnight. The LaCrosse is a good stepping stone for its next generation or replacement. I mean the average age of a Buick buyer was 70 only a couple years ago- You got to take it a few steps at a time, the conservative styling but improved everything else is worth it to keep Buick alive. Remember- they're treading on thin ice and I expect Buicks flagship to be the first Buick since 87 that people actually crave to own. I hope so at least. I'm 22 and you bet I was disappointed to see that the Lucerne only recieved 275 HP while the Impala SS, Monte SS, and Grand Prix (the Regals twin practically!) get 305 (I believe) and LaCrosse only got a 240 HP slower engine than the Regal. But the 3.6 is not the be-all end-all. I live in a very GM friendly area of the country and one of the few Buick dealers in the area said they aren't even ordering the CXS's because the engine is still too new and too unreliable. My parents are looking at buying one. Personally I disagree about the 3.6- I haven't heard any problems with it yet and its been out a couple years already. But the 3800 is arguably the best engine of all time, especially in my opinion. I had a car with a hair under 300,000 with that engine, my brother is on 250,000 with one LeSabre, and 200,000 with the other, My father is at 150,000 with his LeSabre and none had ever had one engine problem. Call it old fashioned but it's a damn good engine. If I could I'd always make it available on any Buick. And you're right- Buick needs more exclusivity and Buick also deserves a sports division because every other god damn GM company has a sports division. But for what the LaCrosse is aimed at right now it's not a bad car. It's no worse than any others in my opinion, and I feel I back it up pretty well. I'm a Buick man and I like Buick styling. It's even a step up from the square Impala or the rehashed Grand Prix. I am not a big fan of the back though- it is to GMized with the trunk that reminds me of the Cavalier and the tail lights that have no Buick character. Enzl- I don't drink GM kool-aid and if GM cuts Buick I will never by a GM again. That's a fact. I believe in my Buicks and trust in my Buicks and its a shame anytime GM needs to interfere with their quality, build, and style to save cash- because thats all GM is there to do is save cash. If you notice I almost post on no other GM thread. It's not that I don't like some GM vehicles outside of Buick- I do... but I also like other vehicles outside of GM- I've been impressed with Chryslers styling lately with the 300, Crossfire, and even the Pacifica, I also am a big fan of Nissan's styling with all their vehicles. But as you can read above our Buicks have been trustworthy, and they are unique vehicles that hit a part of the market I like. They're classy and they're not a dime-a-dozen. You can always expect quality with every Buick (aside from perhaps some of the late 80s/early 90s low end models such as the Skylark). I'm a Buick fan through and through for their quality, unique unabandoned history, and afforadability. GM can fuck themselves every time they deny Buick styling and power freedom. I'm sorry your best defense for the Accords interior is because it feels and looks more "right" but if you're basically telling me your opinion weighs more than mine you can stop drinking your high-horse kool-aid because that is getting to your head. Don't give me anything about bringing up the Accord being a "moot point," he compared the 2 in the first place, I just took it farther. And I agree Buick needs to innovate, not imitate- Buick was best at that in the past... but with the chokehold GM is putting on Buick right now making sure it's not too sporty for Pontiac, and doesn't cross into Saturn's new position taking over Oldsmobile, and giving Chevys as much options as Buicks, and making sure Buick doesn't compete in luxury or power with Cadillac leaves them in a pretty tight place. Buick should be allowed to show up any of those companies if they can't stay ahead, and Buick used to be allowed to if they so desired. Today it's all about not stepping on anyone elses toes under the GM umbrella... only it seems that nobody seems to care if the rest step on Buick's toes.

I agree... but can they do it? and in a time efficient manner? That's the questions.

Make sure what you're talking about first please. The interior is one of the best put together in the industry- better than any Honda, and comparable TO Lexus. Very tight. Very silent, also comparable to Lexus... oh... and these are things that come STANDARD with EVERY LaCrosse. That means people are paying $20,000 for this interior. Please don't make broad, generalized statements without putting any facts behind them, "interior is the equivilant found on the last generation accord" makes no sense and you have no reason to back it up. Look for yourself LaCrosse Accord Wow, you're right- the steering wheels in the same spot, the seats are in the same spot, you're making me see plenty of the 'similarites.' And now the 3.6 is 240 horsepower, not your made-up, unresearched, 225 hp. And it's a celebrated refined engine. And on this Buick thread alone there have been many arguments about the pros and cons of the 3.8. Many of us are still fans- there is not one type of engine for all cars. And you have the audacity to call razor bias toward GM when you first don't have your facts straight on the LaCrosse and that Buick IS actually one of the most quality vehicle makers according to JD Powers and other sources. Buick ranks up there always in the top 5 of best built, longest lasting vehicles- and yea- they're GM. Is all GM like that? No. But Buick is still around for a reason- a reason you refuse to even care about because you're bias against anything GM apparently. Asking for something more different from Buick is fine. But ripping them apart without even knowing what they sell in a GM/Buick thread discussion is ridiculous. Don't just go marching in and yell at people who defend a different viewpoint than your own. It's obvious you were acting far too arrogant about Buick AND the LaCrosse. The LaCrosse is a quality vehicle- no it doesn't scream sports sedan and no it isn't the most exciting looking vehicle in a world that worships ricers. Buick maintains style and class with their vehicles. They're not for everyone. Just please don't come in being another GM/Buick hater without any solid reasons... you don't like that Buick isn't the sportiest car company? Me neither-- but damnit they're good cars.

It was at the Buick Club of America meet in Batavia New York just this summer. The Centieme was not the highlight- the Velite was there! But it was indoors and the pictures came out poorly because it was so damn dark. And of course there was a mountain of historic Buicks all around too including an 87 GNX with 400 miles on it and a 53 Skylark amongst many others- very awesome experience... I didn't get to sit in any of the vehicles, but my brother and I stuck out head through the open window of the Centieme and we even touched the Velite. The interior of the Centieme was gorgeous but any concept vehicles better have gorgeous interior. If they made it, I'd love it... but they better keep good on the rims and keep them at least 18 inches... you can't put dubs on a concept car and give the production version 15 or 16 inch rims. No.

I forgot to post my pictures of the Centieme: I wonder if they'll keep the 22 inch rims that were on the Centieme... hahahahahahaha. And at least we know they won't put in the 400HP turbo engine (because there was a note in the centieme telling whoever drove it that it wasn't running right). I think the Centieme's real nice and I'm excited with what AH-HA said.

Well I guess the Riv wasn't really dropped... but its true there is no 1994 Riv.

The Riviera, Roadmaster, and the Century are all Buick names that have been dropped and reused multiple times... we could see LeSabre back anytime, but not likely within the next 5-10 years.

I totally agree!

I didn't mean that no old people drive minivans, there is no generality that works so widely that no one age group just doesn't buy a certain style of cars. I just meant that the majority of minivan buyers are parents of younger kids. No doubt we see all age groups in a minivan but generally the DVD system, auxiliary rear climate control, the eight speaker extended range sound, the 6 disc in dash/mp3 player, and the digital media storage system (all available on the Terraza) doesn't appeal to and is not geared for the typical elderly person. Minivans are first and formost for younger families. Period. And it will lower the average age of a Buick buyer which used to be the oldest in the industry. Period.

I'm not saying older people don't buy minivans. I'm just saying the majority of minivan buyers aren't elderly. And that's just a fact. Even though elderly people might like the space of a minivan it's the families who NEED the space in these minivans... they WANT the DVD players in the back seats for the kids, the Terraza is not meant for a 60+ crowd because there are a lot of options that have nothing to do with room for groceries or whatever else you might claim elderly people need a minivan for but that doesn't mean a 60+ person wouldn't buy it. Minivans have all the qualities a soccer mom is looking for, or a family with 3+ kids. THIS will be the main buyers of the Terraza because thats who its geared towards. To pretened so many older people are going to buy the Terraza it's not going to make the average age of Buick drop (which was the purpose for bringing up the Terraza in the first place) is ridiculous. Minivans are always #1 for families. Even though older people might like room for whatever reason (I know just as many older people who don't need any room at all and like small cars they can handle well) there are SUVs and Crossovers to choose from as well that give them pretty much just as much room without the options made for children to boot. The Terraza WILL bring down the average age of Buick drivers. It's not a vehicle aimed at 20 year olds like a Mistubishi, but it's not aimed at 70 year olds either (the used-to-be average age of a Buick buyer). It's aimed for those with children, as I said, probably 25-45... even though since its an upper end minivan it'll probably have a median age of about 40, thats still 30 years younger.

The names didnt kill the car, it was the fact that they went 7 years without a thing being changed on them. It was Buick's reputation that was getting tarnished, not the Regal, Century, or LeSabre... and it was for nothing more than lack of change in product.

Well the main minivan buying crowd will always be the family with kids and parents of people with kids are anywhere from 25 to 45 which is far younger than the average age of Buick which used to be like 70 or something. Sure there will always be the occasional 70 year old who buys a minivan but always it will appeal to the family-crowd.