Cananopie

Unofficially we've seen enough signs at C&G that the LaCrosse Super is most definitely coming around I'd say without them outright announcing it specifically. A lot of solid hints. I am interested to see what else they do too, and I hope it's a lot for it to be considered over the other V8 midsize GM vehicles, I'm really hoping it's not the same V8 engine they put in the rest (I'm not very good at knowing what engines GM makes and what would be a good fit for the LaCrosse)... but I wouldn't call it a real performance car unless it had at least another gear and some timing stats that really make people blink. I hope the exterior looks more aggressive too because the LaCrosse just looks too relaxed and refined to be so tough.

The LaCrosse Super would be a cheap way out of that statement because a LaCrosse Super isn't a "performance car" The Impala SS isn't a performance car, the Corvette is. The Grand Prix isn't a performance car, the GTO is. Let's see a real one with some class. It'd give that one extra car that Buick would need.

I think the the goal of every vehicle company out there is to have the best selling vehicle in their class. More vehicles sold means more income generated for the company... less vehicles sold ergo means less money. More vehicles sold means it's more popular than the car with less sold, right? So therefore it's a lot more than just a nice advertising theme... it's acutally a goal of theirs. It'd be unwise to just abandon where everybody is willingly putting their money. Abandoning the loyal customers and hopping entirely on a new track is exactly what Oldsmobile did. The reason why Buick is down to only 3 vehicles that appeal to both loyal customers and draws in new customers is because all of the GM companies are dealing with the issues of losing about 25% of the market in the last 30 years and having to pay a lot of retired people what they can't afford to pay them anymore. It's not Buick's fault. I've been trying to ignore the personal attacks on this site and I hope nobody got offended at anything I've said. It's a forum and I enjoy the discussion of very different opinions. I do not agree with any personal attacks and with OC or Turbo I'm honored you took the time to have the discussion with me. I'm not saying it to be corny or to suck up to any admins but I want no hard feelings because, after all, it's a car entushiast forum and forums are about fun. Hopefully anybody who is personally attacking other people will restrain themselves and not pay attention to the topic anymore because it frustrates them so. I am all for civilized or even heated discussions but personal attacks are just wrong. Let's have fun guys! It's a forum to share our interests!

Then the discussion changed because it used to be that the Lucerne was at least 5 years dated. That is why I'm so resiliant about this topic. The Lucerne can be improved but from the fact that the LeSabre was the best selling full sized sedan for just about ever, better car or not in your eyes more people wanted it than the Avalon by almost double. So abandoning what brings in almost double more sales is a pretty ridiculous idea. The direction they're moving in is something that is very competitive and upscale and I think from the Regal Century and LeSabre to the Lacrosse then to the Lucerne and now to the Enclave it is the best financial move corporately for them to make at the time. I'd say everyone would agree the Lucerne is a lot more competitive to the quality of the Avalon than the LeSabre, but the LeSabre still had more sales. Without abandoning the LeSabre as Oldsmobile abandoned their crowd so rapidly and moving to a more refined direction GM and Buick are making the best move with this vehicle. Especially in a couple years when Buick makes a Lucerne Super and it will be even better. But don't be so positive that you know what people want when it is strikingly obvious people wanted the LeSabre over the Avalon. There is no reason why people would want to leave to Toyota if they like the LeSabre with the Lucerne.

It looks like the Buick LaCrosse Super is a definite green light.

I see you've taken an all-out assault to try and revive this dead argument with 5 seperate rebukes. I'm not upset or anything but I still think it pretty much stands that the Lucerne is competitive. Whatever you want to say about the Lucerne interior is very nit-picky because overall it has been a widely praised interior. If the plastic was softer but the gaps were wider then you'd probably be arguing that the Avalon is far better because the gaps in the Lucerne are wider and doesn't have the same precisional quality of the Avalon. Of course I can't prove that but that's the feeling i get. I quoted your comment on the Fusion because I've recently been in one of a friends and the soft plastic, especially around the HVAC area (which is similar to a VW Golf I was recently in) permanantly scratches if your nail hits it. Now if that's the kind of material you believe is quality material we obviously have different viewpoints. I was not uncomfortable in the slightest when I was in the Lucerne with any of the plastic and nothing felt cheap to me and that had a lot to do with having some of the tightest gaps in the industry. It was solid so that means it's most definitely not brittle. Brittle is something that you fear is going to fall apart. I suggest you get in to some other vehicles below $20k to find truly cheap plastic. Once again your defense is mostly nit-picking. You complain about the Lucerne performance but ignore the engine refinement. You ignore things like the Magnetic Ride control which were only available on extremely high-end GM vehicles before this. You ignore that Buick has some of the tightest gaps in the industry and you ignore that it is quieter than Lexuses. Had any of your complaints been tended to instead of these things you would call the Lucerne an inferior vehicle for missing what it is leading in. The Avalon isn't inferior for not having the same engine refinement as the Lucerne? The Avalon is still just as great of a car with larger gaps? The Avalon is louder than the Lucerne but that has no bearing in its competitiveness? The Avalon does not have the room the Lucerne provides... yet thats easily overlooked when the Lucerne is better. There are many places where the Lucerne excels and the Avalon falls short. The point is they are both current and competitive vehicles. No doubt it'd be nice to see a bit more of an edge in the Lucerne for power... but does that break the vehicle? No. Neither does the plastic being used. If you believe the Lucerne still isn't competitve in its price-range then you are just in the overwhelming minority.

Thanks Wildcat for sharing the photos! I really liked em! Awesome signature by the way! Exactly my feelings.

When I drove the Lucerne with the V6 I felt it had more power than my 2000 Regal LSE. I really think the 3.8 can really do well with power. 10 years ago most cars didn't have 200 HP and you were a pretty powerful vehicle if you did. Now so many people try to make it sound like 200HP is like 115 HP in '96. But the truth is the 200 HP engines of today are a lot more efficient and can move faster than the 200 HP of just 10 years ago. I have passed plenty of people/got on to on-ramps just fine with my 3.8, I see no real problem with its power abilities. Those who fall in to the mindset that HP should be at least 250 now will probably never really use it that often anyway.

The '01 Passat is obviously behind the Lucerne and the '06 Passat and the Lucerne I say are right on par with each other. No navigation system yet to compare it to but overall I'd say both the Passat and the Lucerne have very nice and competitive interiors. I think I've made my point with the agreement of a few other people on the fact that the Lucerne is most definitely competitive with todays "moved on" designs as much as the next vehicle. There are just way too many people who have reviewed in magazines and newspapers as well as people right here in C&G that definitely do not agree with this "5 years behind" idea. And there are nit-picky, non-fact-based opinions that seem to be driving this idea. If one person could point out "Look, this reason right here is a factual reason why the interior is so dated" but there have only been about two or three very opinionated reasons on why the Lucerne isn't competitive. In my personal opinion the interior of the Avalon is too cluttered all in the center and the lame futuristic minimalism is everywhere else on the front. It looks cold and unwelcoming. But it is most definitely competitive. The difference is I don't let my opinion weigh on the quality and currentness of the vehicle. I don't need my vehicles to be done in some goofy crazy new way every time they're made. I don't know if it's because some people believe Toyota SETS the standard and Buick has to come as close to Toyota as possible without ripping it off for the interior in order for it to be good or if some people are just really intolerant to a little difference in design but I say it's clearly obvious the Lucerne is competitive. But I am tired of repeating myself. There is no obvious correlation between the 01 Passat or the old Acura RL and the Lucerne. These are just feelings a couple of you are getting about the vehicle... which is totally fine but that doesn't qualify it as dated.

"More special" is way way different than "5 years ago" interior. The main argument against your stand is that you say this car isn't a good current competitor. You're dancing around the topic saying things on how you understand how your special taste won't influence most buys but that the interior should be that one step ahead of the rest... I'll admit it isn't totally and completely above the rest and I'll admit I'd like to see it there, but there are some aspects of the interior that are above the competition, there are some aspects equal, and few aspects that are lower... but it is a currently competitive interior that rivals the Avalon... not behind it. That is the main point you dance around when people disagree with you. So is it a competitive interior or is it a throwback 5 years interior? Above and beyond all competition would be nice to see from Buick, thats obvious. But that is hard for any company to do otherwise they'd all do it. But to call it dated that is competitive to vehicles 5 years ago is an atrocity. I'm not saying this to just pick on you exclusively but this cliched bashing needs to end on Buick- not just from you but from everyone who just feels it's a gimme to say crap like that. Buck is current. The Lucerne is very current and competitive with all other current and competitive vehicles in its class. If you really find something that makes it so bad that it is only competitive to 5 years ago be prepared to have to fully justify it.

Croc, I'd appreciate it if you didn't accuse me of lying, and then being rude on top of that. Different opinions don't constitute your arrogancy. I went to the Lucerne Premiere night and drove a Lucerne, not just sat in it. I got to look it over for a while too. At any point did I say something completely untrue? I have only been arguing that the Lucerne is competitive in todays market where it is chic to accuse every single Buick that comes out to be dated an not competitive in todays market. Nowhere did I say the quality of the Lucerne is superior to the Avalon or any other car in its playing range. When I initially said 'it's the best you're going to find in its class' I didn't mean it was #1, hands down, nothing can even compare (I can't think of any car that can do that with anything), I just meant it's able to compete with the best in the class. I have admitted its shortcomings even. I have said that if you believe the Avalon is a better vehicle overall than the Lucerne then it is completely an opinionated accusation because the Lucerne is competitive to the Avalon. Period. Not better, not worse. Competitive. As Ven said, people are making the Lucerne problems bigger than they really are. I have never claimed the Lucerne to be the best car available, I have only claimed it is competitive to the vehicles in its category. Everyone else here who is disagreeing with me specifically is adamently refusing that credit to the Lucerne.

See, the USA today guy raved about the quality of the materials and the interior of the Lucerne over the Avalon. So it's not just that simple, your views are obviously not objective. I'm not saying the Avalon is lesser quality, I'm just saying the Lucerne is a competitor to todays vehicles.

I know you're being serious and you as a person truly believe this... but honestly doesn't is sound like bull$h! really? I mean are there even qualifications to stack one up against the other? Avalon has "better" materials and a more "intriguing" luxurious design. How are they better and what makes it more intriguing exactly? The plastic is perfect to the touch for you? Would a carpet be a better interior because of it's softness? And without the Fusion material right next to the Lucerne material I really think it's not really a fact rather than your opinion. I'd like you to find other people to agree with you on that. Your points about the Fusion being better than the Lucerne were this: -The hard dash materials on the Lucerne -The black plastic around the HVAC controls -Uninspiring design of the center console The hard dash material I addressed. I really think it's worse than finnicky. It's not the same plastic you're going to find in the Cobalt, but it's no $60k vehicle either. If the dash plastic makes or breaks a single buy I will be very amazed. And if it won't affect a single sale then your point is really moot. The black plastic around the HVAC controls still confuse me... because not only is the execution of the HVAC controls on the Fusion look far more poorly executed but there is black plastic around THOSE HVAC controls... so what are you even trying to say? It's higher quality black plastic? Softer black plastic? more interesting black plastic design around the HVAC controls? All these aren't just as you say 'nitpicks' because I can not even fathom what is so great about those obviously bland HVAC controls and their black plastic that surrounds them that just floors and surpasses the Lucerne's black plastic around the HVAC. This is where I had the biggest issue- the design of the Fusion is more inspiring to you than the Lucerne? Is it the huge black square in the center of its console that really proves it to the smoother edges of the Lucerne? The cheap looking vents? The fact that the plastic actually bulges out around the black plastic in the center console? And I don't know if you count the shifter but in the Fusion it's obviously a joke. I really can't understand the smooth flowing design of the Lucerne without a sharp angle in sight is just surpassed by the Fusion. Even if it just is the center console, between the two pictures in my mind the Buick obviously has a better design. I don't think the Lucerne is lacking in anything but gas mileage and perhaps an extra gear and probably RWD, but sales are more on FWD I think. Other than that I think there is nothing significantly wrong with the Lucerne... like I said if it's not your style, it's not your style, but I would like to meet the man who was GOING to buy a Lucerne until he felt the dash plastics and went for the Avalon instead. Seriously. It just isn't enough of an accusation to say the Lucerne is good for "maybe 5 years ago" but not now. YOU said that about the Lucerne not 3 posts ago but at the same time you're admitting they're 'nitpick' problems and that the Lucerne was so close to just surpassing all competition... but at the same time you say the overall design is good for "maybe 5 years ago" how can you justify both of these positions? Especially when you base almost all your argument on the dash plastic. The DASH plastic of all things to put a car 5 years behind!

By "better materials" in the Fusion you obviously didn't mean that their plastic is any "softer" than the Lucerne's plastic because it's either equal or harder in feel. The Lucerne isn't "hard" plastic in the sense that it is a typical hard plastic, it is a softer plastic that bends and squishes to a degree throughout the whole vehicle. My 97 Skylark had hard plastic and it was very obvious, the Lucerne's plastic is higher quality material. The Fusion's plastics do not compare. You also didn't mean the black plastic surrounding the Fusion's HVAC is any higher in quality than the black plastic surrounding the Lucerne's I hope because they are both surrounded with black plastic. Now if you honestly find the design of the center console of the Fusion more inspiring you might not be a proper interior aficionado. There are very obvious reasons why the interior of the Lucerne far outclass the Fusion's and I think it pretty rude and ridiculous to keep classing it with vehicles like 5 or 10 years ago. Aside from the fact that you could probably fit a pen inside the gaps in the Fusion and they're practically invisible in the Lucerne, their center console is as dull as it gets with undoubtably lesser refinement on every last thing in there. The Fusion shifter is a joke while the Lucerne's is very classy looking. You might not find it your style since a lot of interior is subjective but it is definitely not surpassed by the Fusion's interior as you are claiming. But even if you want to defy all that EVEN Car and Driver, The USA Today, and almost every other reviewer on the vehicle all admit the interior is above par in quality. Car and Driver even had to break down to admit it and obviously since they're comparing the Lucerne to a 90s Camry (see page 2 of this thread if you forgot what they were comparing it to) you know they wouldn't have given credit for the interior if it wasn't due. This is nothing to you personally but people need to seriously stop throwing Buick to five years ago, for your instance in particular the pictures alone just prove the Lucerne outclasses the Fusion with a glance. It is a current vehicle and it is a competitive vehicle and everybody needs to accept that. I don't like Toyota vehicles but I accept that they are a competitor even though their quality isn't as good as Buick's anymore. The Avalon isn't something I'm going to dismiss as a poor vehicle and neither should the Lucerne to those of you who typically find Asian cars more attractive. Styling, especially interiors, are very much a subjective issue. To keep downing the Lucerne as throwback vehicle to where they were 5 years ago is ridiculous. I guess luxury isn't quieter than Lexuses, I guess luxury isn't some of the tightest gaps in the industry, I guess luxury isn't a smooth finish that is obviously apparent in the picture above where the Fusion is not. I'm not saying the Fusion is a bad vehicle, because it's not... but it is not near in quality to the Lucerne and thats obvious. It's even more obvious in the seating, power, reliability, and options that the Fusion don't offer. Get realistic with your comparisons. The Fusion holds nothing to the Lucerne. You want to say the Avalon's a better vehicle? That's a judgement call and I won't find it something worth arguing against because they're both on the same level. But don't get foolish and compare it with something so ridiculous. If the Lucerne isn't your type, that's fine, but don't just trash it with unfounded claims comparing it to a vehicle thats at its best $5k less than the Lucerne's worst.

I almost started a new poll for this just because if a "reputable" magazine printed it then there must be some basis to it, but I decided after a minute that people would probably more upset at the waste of a brand new topic that asked a ridiculous question. But since Car and Driver decided that research wasn't necessary for their opinions I decided to do the research for them. I just went to Edmunds and took 4 pictures of 90s Camrys since Car and Driver believe the new Lucerne is virtually an exact replica of one of them. I took a 1990 Camry, a 93 Camry, a 96 Camry, and a 99 Camry, they are posted below the Lucerne picture. I'd like to hear from ANYONE at all that would like to defend the Car and Driver statement, which is this exactly: "Apart from the reinterpreted portholes, the wedgy shape seems familiar and tired, a repeat of the '90s Camry; only the big-eye look in front saves it from being a complete cliche." Anybody who is willing to back this statement up I'd love to hear it. I tried to get mostly side and rear end pictures since apparently the headlights are the only thing they could differentiate between shape. I'll even but what model and year each picture is so you don't get it confused with the Lucerne. 2006 Buick Lucerne ***THIS IS THE LUCERNE, IT IS NOT A CAMRY DESPITE SIMILAR APPEARANCE. I KNOW IT IS HARD TO TELL BECAUSE THE HEADLAMPS ARENT PICTURED HERE*** 1990 Toyota Camry 1993 Toyota Camry 1996 Toyota Camry 1999 Toyota Camry YOU be the judge: Is Car and Driver right or are they really perhaps maybe a bit too judgemental?

I've sat in a Lucerne and the materials are fairly high quality. $60k plus "high quality" materials? No. But thats because the car is friggen $25k starting. Did you forget that? The materials are the best you're going to get in that price range.

I think Car and Driver and Motor Trend need to start supporting their opinions and backing up why they will go crazy over one thing and not the other. I can understand being pro-better-gas-mileage, even an extra gear or two, or whatever. Those are reasonable reasons to choose one over the other, but the magazines are getting 'set in their way' now which is exactly what they didn't like about Buick in the first place.

Am I the only one who doesn't get the "gray Panther" reference? What does that even mean?

I just happened to run across this and personally I think it looks pretty goofy but I just can't believe Buick did this. More pictures are on the site. http://www.luxurycarts.com/buick_lucerne_golf_cart.htm

Haha, we're all begging for something with a little more flash from Buick. I can't disagree. 4 door sedans are nice, but sometimes you want a coupe or something a little showier or more powerful.

Wheels: Lucerne should broaden Buick's appeal to younger set Thursday, February 02, 2006 By Don Hammonds, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette Growing up in the 1950s, one of my favorite memories was an olive green 1949 Buick Roadmaster Convertible that my next-door neighbor proudly drove around town. That car had that indefinable something called presence. You couldn't take your eyes off of it and there was a certain air of romance about it as it headed down the road. Buick always stood for just that -- presence, glamour and the romance of the American road. And thanks to Buick's newest full size sedan, the Lucerne, General Motors' upper-end car division has recaptured that past. http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06033/648245.stm Chalk another one up for the Lucerne over the Avalon! It's good to see people turning their heads over this vehicle! He even says the ride is better than the ES series!

Why? The LeSabre was still being sold last January. Obviously less than in previous years because of its age but the Lucerne doesn't have near the incentives as the dying LeSabre did nor is it that well known yet to where most people know about it.

I'm still upset at the lack of interest Motor Trend put in to the Lucerne. It was like they didn't even take it for a test drive. They just call the Avalon the "Buick GM never built" and say the Lucerne is inferior to it in every way possible. I am thankful for that article in USA Today because stigmas like Motor Trend's have gone far too long. If we wanted a bias opinion we can just ask any Toyota-lover what they think of the Lucerne. Sure, theres some bias in everybody's opinion but the complete disreguard of the Lucerne makes Motor Trend not worthy of even being a magazine anymore. Buick has obviously always been a contender otherwise they wouldn't be a company anymore. The fact that the LeSabre killed Avalon sales year after year might be the first fact they want to bring up on why their amazing spectacular vehicle can't beat just a boring old Buick. I'm glad some people are waking up and at least admitting the Lucerne is a real and true contender, these are the sources you know you can go to later for a fair judgement on vehicles.

Just because a vehicle debuts in one color doesn't mean that is going to be the solid production color. It just means they didn't build a whole vehicle for each color. Aside from the Grand National I don't think Buick has ever offered only one color for a whole vehicle. That's murder to sales, especially since it's a shade of brown... yea, it's classy but it's still brown.

Now the only question is will they build a Buick off of it.