razoredge

Im afraid to ask what you find funny in a good way............... I worded the last part of that not in the best way. It should say, theres a long line of people on the "hate the edge" list and it dates back a long time. Not really, I have lots of respect actually, but most dont like to spend too much time around me, you know, "too much of a good thing " Oh well such is the story of my life. I love Canada and Canadians, they are my brothers and sisters, its too bad the border is there as far as Im concerned. They have fought side by side with America during the last century for the same or similar freedoms. When you think about it, the border is a joke. The "Frenchys" in Quebec doubled my income at one time in my live, overnight, just by simply doing business with them instead of American mills................I was always treated fairly and had a great bunch of guys comming regularly to truck my logs to the Greater Whiter North, even if we couldnt understand a word either said, we had fun in our work relationship. I really miss those days. Through the Malamutes and sledding I also made friends with a bunch of people from Ontario, I also miss those days, very much. I have one "Canook" dog here right now, hes been a very interesting member of the family for 7 years thus far. Canada ROCKS !

I ashamedly admit, this is NOT true in the case of me and mine, things have improved however, but ....................damn ! I was expecting more way back in the beginning. Sex IS a need and those that dont need it, need help. This is one instance in which I love the needy.................... actually thats not true Croc, the longer you smoke the more distracting it becomes and with distraction comes less focus and that impares mental performance. It doesnt seem this way when younger, thats why some, like myself just kept on going. That superman thing, "its not really affecting me" well one day that all catches up with you and besides the health issues you realize how much of your time and focus is wasted due to this distraction. No, it doesnt make you stupid, but it will not allow you to be all that you can be. In the same breath (weeze) I will say that I was a smoker during the most successful part of my life. Still my productivity did improve after I quit but that could be because I was running around "like a chicken with its head cut off" fighting the nicotine withdrawal and nervous figiting by keeping very, very busy.

Thats good news for American workers, but the torque numbers are very bad. I hope they can get this to the second or third stage very quickly to improve some of the power and mileage complaints we are hearing from the "pros". Its seems all hope for a better GM in the midsize segment are hinged on this new engine.

how about that, the old dated antiquated L67 gets 23 everyday of the week in a real full size full luxury antiquated car chassis...........damn pushrods ? Inferior pushrod, new engine that should never exist still manages 25 everyday of the week in midsize sports sedan with low final drive ratio, though a bit of a dog compared to the engine it replaced.............

Go figure Big surprise Wow.......really? you dont say imagine that its OK cant see it from Washington

No Buick and Pontiac were always full line brands, saturin was NOT ! In fact at one time saturin was NOT......period. It does not need to be an economy box for Buick to have a upscale small car, like BMW's 3 series. Inifinity has a small car and who care what Lexus has, whats that got to do with putting product on Buick lots that will sell to a larger consumer base. They are killing the Buick dealerships by limiting the amount of car possibilities and giving them Suvs and Crossuvs to compete against GMC, Pontiac, Chevy and saturin. Buick was the dealership for Opel, these people need something to sell. Buick dealerships look like ghost towns around these parts. Most of the former Oldsmobile dealers picked up Pontiac when Olds was thrown away. So now they are Cadillac, Pontiac dealerships. Buick just sits with few models and GMC truck which they are competing against. Theres rows and rows of weird gray cloth interiored Lacrosses w/ hubcaps that somehow seem to fit well with the rest of the ghost town look adorning most Buick dealerships. Just imagine if Lucerne had not come abouts as it did and we still had that awkward last generation LeSabre. Buick dealerships would already have had to throw in the towel. I think the Lucerne was simply throwing the dog a bone, same for the Enclave that is going to have competition on the very same lot with GMC and the current trend for smaller cars. Its ALL alright though, saturin has the aura Olds was supposedly killed so Buick and Pontiac could breath, its apparent now that is was done so saturin could have it all. I all looks very systematic to me.

I never work in these kinds of environments, I dont know how you people can take it. Lots of people, cliques, all the bull$h! involved with all these personalities and priorities. Working pent up inside, I say you all deserve a big fat raise ! When I smoked, I was outside anyhow and always alone. I always deserved the break I took, as most men would never do what I did in the first place because of the extreme effort involved as well as the feast or famine aspect of earning your own keep through production. My "wife" still smokes and shes real level headed, unlike myself who gets worked up over everything. She also a worker, gotta love her. Many of the "types" your talking about would be prone to such behavior anyhow, this same weakness leads to smoking, alcholism and many other typical human flaws. Remember too that they are hanging out in a clique of sorts and that just breeds a certain amount of nonsense. It could be seen in any clique, possibly the worse violaters would be wealthy wives clubs gossiping about how everyones screwed up but themselves. I think if you look really closely you will find good people out there too. I also suspect you'll find some worthless non smokers. Now Refer ?................. Dudes on Refer will never get worked up nor dramatize over anything.................but more Refer !............... Dont smoke and if you do the earlier you quit the better. I did after 25 years and it truely was the absolute hardest thing I ever did. Id a rather been hit over the head once a day. I was a far more patient man when I smoked. Cancer is nothing, many people that never smoked die of some sort of cancer. What is a 100% positive result of smoking is you will have lung & breathing problems even if cancer escapes you. You will become a weezy, coughing, hacking, breathless bitch and the damn things will still be calling your name as you sit there choking. I know where the Devil lives and its tobacco !

Now that I pulled myself back up from under the desk, all I have to say is WTF just happened here? How come I never got one of these..........................no wait.............dont answer that.......I already know, its OK, theres a long line and its older than most people here.

Yes, its always sad that everyone seem to need to be at one end of the extreme or the other. They used to call me the greenpeace logger but I really believed in renewable resource, and proper forest management and care......key word there...care! Where as the rest of the industry wanted to sell the renewable resource speach but still go ahead and just get the money, rape, pillage and run. Some day I hope to get photos up, such a pain with 35mm, Ill show ya some discusting, irresponsible stuff, performed on state land with state forester approval or blind eye. Anyhow, I forget for sure but I believe this plant can run on natural gas, LP, or some form of oil. I think they are all like that now. The idea was so they could burn what ever could be bought cheapest at any time. The two Im talking about were built on the Hudson River so barge access was available. Really close to the Port of Albany. As far as ways to die, I think the slow burn would be better than the fairly fast one............ Our air is far cleaner now than it was in the 70's. Once again responsible population is an early preventative..............

Just wanted to say good points, except for trying to make it OK for Buick and Pontiac to be further castrated and robbed of their earned due. Kinda sounds like its OK for Caddy and .....................saturin?.................to supercede Buick (Oldsmobile) and Pontiac...........just because?..........The BOP team sold all those H, C, W, B, A, E bodies so Caddy and ..............saturin?.... could get the developement funding and all the toys.........................Buick and Pontiac will be lucky to make it to the supposed next round of "updates". The long term plan is getting a little more than a bit obvious as this year has evolved. Then when they are done, Im sorry, they can call it GM but it will no longer be GM, it will be Chevrolet, saturin, Cadillac and that aint, General Motors, ah no more..............

Balth - that whole entire paragraph was a fist in the air, lip biting, spittin and kickin rage at the whole pile of bull $h! that brought us to these times and the blind eyes that wont address the real problems and long term results they achieved.. all this obvious crap and we just keep trudging forward with careless blind faith that somehow someday this will be a better country for it. "just wait, you'll see" Yea, I friggin care, just wondering who else does

While you all may not agree with his sumary, he still made some valid points. Myself I cant make a sumary of the future of the real American auto industry. I do feel its going to loose as all other manufactureing in the US has. Sure the Japs will build cars here just due to logistics but they wont be what most of us older Americans will consider American. I suppose as long as our leadership like Bush and all the other pushovers continue making statements about the "new" American automotive industry, most Americans will be just fine with it. Hell they are already. I dont think Ford, GM and Chrysler will get them back. They belong to Honda/Toyota now, and the cheepskates like myself that have thrived on used GM's or Fords will eventually buy Hyundias and Kias. Many already are. Thats my opinion and prediction. I fight it but its a loosing battle on account of the attitude in this country, both consumer and business leaders. As it is, with all the outsourcing they are hardly American anymore anyhow..........so really ? why should we give a damn ? What are we fighting for ? Legacy ? The Legacy of owning a vehical built in your own country by your own fellow man ? Tradition ? Buying vehicals from the former industrial giants and decendants of the men and woman that defeted the Germans and Japanese in the 40's so we could have all this that we have today ? It means nothing anymore.................right ? So what are we so attached to a name ? General Motors ? What does it really mean anyhow ? Made in Mexico ? Made in Australia ? Made in Germany ? Made in China ? Made in India ? Made in Turkey ? It really doesnt matter anymore does it ? Its just a badge. Hawk - Our L67 LSS bested itself on continous freeway driving at between 74-80 mph at 26 mpg. Thats it, it has never once hinted in being interested in delievering anymore. THat was running both south and back north from midstate NY to Knoxville Tennesee. Three different trips, same results everytime. While its about one hundred pounds heavier than GP with slighty more frontal area, its still a very aerodynamic package. Im also a very effecient driver in ways such as coasting up to intersections and not using lots of brakes becasue I let off at last moment. While we do travel swiftly I do alot of low load acceleration and deceleration. So no, though I do feel you are pretty stand up, I still cant believe your results. I was impressed with the 17 mpg I achieved with my Grandfathers 318 TB injected 82 NYer. Also, the 15 mpg I achieved with the 76 Delta w/denutted 350 Olds I still dont believe most people claims. Ive talked to people that try to claim 20's with above mentioned cars...........never !

They look the same, fugly, end of story. Who care if they share parts or not, the look is the same, which is bad. It amazes me that somehow we are supposed to believe these two photos were takin at same exact distance and to identical scale.

OK DOEKAY, I hate to do it but heres one of those I was talking about. I bet there was a special potion used in the tank on these puppys too ? I have had many 3.8 powered 80's & 90's GMs. 3.8s are well know, to not only have far more power than the 2.8/3.1 but also far better milage. I spent many hours on the W body forum and know all about the kind of disappointing mileage those guys were getting. My old 3.8's average 20 around & about and will give 25 highway. I am currently driving a 90 Ciera with the 3.3 and it gets 20 mpg period. It runs perfect and has been well maintained and has great power. It gets 20 mpg period, no highway mileage used but we have plenty of open road driving, enough to let me know that this would do the same as our 3.8's on interstates which is 25. In fact its a bit worse, because the 3.3 is multi port injection which is less effecient than sequential. I know many people that drive GM trucks and they all have told me they use some serious gas. This is just the only guy that keeps the records and does the math, using full tank to full tank, and is not the type to search for bragging rites. 40 mpg is old, light, VW Rabbit Diesel territory, dont expect to sell me on a Skylark achieving that. Hell our 3 cylinder Chevy Sprint never reached the 40 mark, high 30's was it. Do I think Silverados can reach 18 ? Yes. 21 ? no way. What do I think the average fo by fo "truck" driver gets for average mileage ? 14. My 2wd V6 Dakota only got 15, sometimes it didnt even make that. Just the aerodynamics of a truck is the first clue, then your hauling all that weight and front axel, transfer case, tie that in with a V8. I borrowed my buddies old 4.3 V6 GMC last fall for some wood haulin and it about killed me. 90 dollars in one day.....................it was less than 200 miles. Maybe you had that special carburator installed ? Or maybe a Tornado intake implant ?

No, no one would want to kid "OC", hes not even open to opinions. Well you usually get back what you invest in.........and GM has not invested in Buick. All money has gone to Cadillac and saturn and Im sure the "OC" would much rather drive an aura than a Lucerne................because....?......Epilson is new and G is "old" ? Brilliant, really brilliant ! Well at least its got a DOHC high this and that gas sucking V6.................ey ?

Ill have to disagree with Fly and Camino on the 50's. To me the 59's cant represent the 50's. They were some kind of transition car, while they may have been ground breaking they were really a clue of the early 60's. So for the 50's Ill go with the 53 Century and 57 Eldorado and give Exner a nod with the Adventurer. Across the pond - all Ferraris, Aston Martins and Jaguars, it was a great decade for them as well. 60's All those perty GM A bodies, but ya know I love my Rivs and Toro's. Lets not forget the glassback Barracuda or Marlin. Ditto from across the pond, add Ford GT & everything Shelby 70's ? Does not split at 73 by any means, It splits and goes all to hell in 77 or 78 depending on the manufacturer & models. Ill give the 71-76 GM B/C bodies their well deserved vote. Let us not forget the Cuda and Charger, nor the Eldorado pimpmobiles, check out some cop movies from the 70's and there is bound to be some Cat in a pimped out Eldorado and a big white hat............ I love it ! When Cool was Cool ! 80's VW Rabbit, two on every street corner, plus two Civics. The age of the gas conscience hatchback. However, for me once again, Ill give the GM H/C bodies the nod and you can take that fugly Taurus and shove it right into the crusher. To be realistic as Croc was about the 90's. For the 80's we have to remember it was also the age of mini..........Minivans, Minitrucks. The Toyota 4X4 and Nissan 4X4 were well loved and sought, The S10 Blazer started the SUV craze. Thats what went down in the 80's..........everyone wore cowboy hats................ 90's ? Croc nailed that one but for me it was nearly dead. Ill give Lotus, Viper, C5 and Supercharged 38's the nod for any available excitement. 00's ? Still waiting ? I guess its still all about Suv's and Hondas and Toyotas. For me I got excited about C6, Solstice, Aston Martin, Mustang, G6C ............... ................. ............... uh ? Yea, otherwise about as exciting as the Suv 90's. "Suv's" and "truckism" ruined the 90's & 00's and trucks as far as Im concerned, a truck should be a truck and never drivin by women or suburbanites..........

Thanks for the info, I shrugged Nuclear energy off decades ago as insane and have never givin it much thought since. So how many fossil fueled turbines is Canada using ? A huge multi fuel plant was just built in our area about 4 years ago, 8 turbines. I worked on some of the early base work, pilings and concrete. There was another further south about 30 miles built as well. See if they had been Nuclear plants we would have had a very creepy feeling living around here. They had to fight like hell to get approved as it was. One in a different direction did get shot down by that city.

I thought the problem was, they never made good compact cars. GM had an engine made in Brazil, used in compacts, had lots of problems. Then they had the "Iron Duke", not exactly whats going to get buyers away from Toyota/Nissian/Honda or VW back in the day. Thats what I was talking about, for some reason Detriot could not engineer and/or produce comparable compacts. Back when we were still driving Economy Boxes the Domestics were like junk. This is who, what, why and when we (N.America) began the huge migration to VW, Toyota, Nissan and Honda. That is the type of cars that gave Domestics their bad reputation and current perception. It was like Detroit just couldnt figure out the 4 cylinder engine. Then came the Quad 4.................looked good at first, but low and behold the bean counter cheapness showed through with head problems. Now we finally have a good 4 but its made where ? Germany or Austrailia ? Quit crying about "legacy" costs, those people were promised that money as part of their pay package, it is their due. It was to have been invested and taken care of all these years by people "we" are supposed to trust. I dont hear anyone trying to take the Smiths or Zerillos or whoevers money away from them, and we damn sure know they didnt need it in the first place. If our government had protected its citizens as their job is paid to do, there would have been enough young workers today contributing to pension funds that this whole damn mess would not even be a wisper of a thought. They should also be protecting us from the Doctor/Lawyer/Insurance/Drug Company organized crime too............but then who would they have left to hob nob with ? TO answer Reg. - Mid size V6 milage is not as good as competitions.............especially in the DOHC department...................this is really going to hurt GM's main market concentration and main market potential. The people I know that are crying the most about gas prices are the people driving "trucks". One friend with a 02 Chevy truck of some sorts, sorry I really find trucks to be appliance enough to forget names and #'s. His is like a 5.3 iron LS. Anyhow hes claiming 12-14 mpg and thats rural driving and he drives so laid back and slow it drives me nuts. I never, ever trust peoples mileage claimes, never have. Over the years Ive heard some real BS about crazy mileage come out of peoples mouths. 3 bucks for every 14 miles traveled somehow looses its appeal after a spell. Construction workers of all sorts will always buy and work new trucks, so its obvious many will still sell. I think Flint was refering to the possers. You know, all those people that one day will get out there somewhere, where they dont belong and do some real baja in' with the big bad fur by fur..............

Regardless 3 mile was a big scare, I can see how its wise to disregard it just because it didnt kill and destroy as Chernobyl. It still happened and it was a better design. As I recall there was a large area that got more than an X ray.........or I may be thinking about another toxic site. Third world cant be trusted with the technology because they are inherently homicidally crazy. Anyhow who has built a newer modern plant? Are the existing plants in the US still running and safe ? How many is that ? Some of you didnt grow up during the Nuclear scare, dont be to judgemental on those of us that remember real fear, not the kind when someone jumps up and says boo ! But the kind that is always hanging over your head. Maybe as many of we baby boomers die off the younger generations will brave it out again. I imagine as long as we are around there will be too much opposition. Myself, I actually could care less anymore.

Now that Ive seen a side shot of the car...........its still one ugly bitch ! Then with the two side by side photos its clearly the same styling.........whether they changed the C pillor or not. Im glad its still ugly, less competiton for GM. Whats with the disproportional HUGE overhangs......................

Id a rather Wagner and cronin would have had the fortitude to develope and manufacture compact economical cars here on our turf. Why has there always been this unwritten law that reliable and economical compact cars of industry strandard cant be built in N America ? Wow ! Canadian gas is only 30 cents a gallon more and they have health care...............

OK, I was being generous. Gasoline is now 2.81 here, it was formerly 3.01 with a brief peek of 3.08 so in reality our gas has dropped 20 cents. Its NY State. We havent seen $2.00 in years, maybe three ? Our gas always goes back up during the winter, our gas always goes back up immeadiately after a decrease to a higher ceiling than ever before. People that are concerned with heating homes during the winter are also not going to be ready set go on buying a new car either. What planet do you live on, I want to move there............so long as its not saturin. GM may be better off that some want to admit, we have all seen that here. Somehow I just dont really care waht saturin and small Chevy have, what does Buick and Pontiac have ? Or are they not GM anymo ?

So let me get this straight, gasoline has dropped 30 cents a gallon, back to where it was last spring and ya'll think everything is OK again ? Its still 40-50 cents more than it was before Katrina 1 years ago. Before that everyone was tired of the current price and it was already hurting "truck" sales. Now I suppose gas will not go back up this winter ? above and beyond the $3 mark. Anyone who has been paying attention knows that immeadiately following a price drop there is an increase that sets a new higher ceiling. Then let me give a little quote that some seemed to ignore and I believe is spot on "Even as that price retreats below $3, the damage has been done." Toyota and Honda are selling innovation and economy. Detroit is still trying to sell and survive on blow out sales of "huge" and "V8". Many GM buyers are distressed about their mileage. Most of those cars you mentioned N* are not something many in the market are going to get excited about. They mostly sound like competition for Kia and Hyundia to me. Sad but True !

Straight from the horses.................

Yea, whats is that ? The new Pontiac G8 interior ? Look at all the buttons, that would take like three weeks with the owners manual and special ed to figure out how to operate.................... Will they send us away for classes ?