GXT

Hargrove is being a little dramatic. Perhaps Ford wil go bankrupt, but GM will simply languish for decades trying to get their book value from -$38 Billion to $0. If GM is able to hire people at $14/hour, then shouldn't their production costs should be in-line with the imports? Why should Canadian tax dollars be spent fixing GM/Ford's incompetence?

At the end of 2006 GM was worth -5.6 Billion. At the end of 2007 they were worth -37 Billion. If GM manages to make some profits for a couple of decades perhaps they can get back to $0 (i.e. worthless). You could call it a paper loss in 2007. But then you could also call it paper assets in the previous years.

I couldn't figure out the discrepancy in GM's 2006 fleet sales numbers between this year's report and last... then I noticed that last year's report reported "Worldwide Retail/Fleet Mix" whereas this year's report contains "U.S. Retail/Fleet Mix". The "good" news is that they managed to go from 26.9% in 2006 to 26.1% in 2007. The bad news is that one has to question why they are changing the scope of the numbers.

I can vary my city fuel economy by 20% just be changing my driving habits. Winter seems to affect me by ~15% as well. Just moving from one house to another changed my city fuel economy by ~10%. A coworker was saddled with a G6 which he drove in a somewhat spirited manner (not crazy) and the trip computer was easily over 16L/100KM (14-15 MPG). I would imagine that 14L/100KM is certainly achievable in a Cobalt with a little aggressive driving.

I agree that nobody's perfect, but this certainly doesn't "prove" what you claim.

I believe ToniCipriani was talking about the Canadian market. Canada isn't experiencing the housing market issues that the US is going through (or the Chavez-like socialist freeze that is being pushed as the solution... but that is for another post). Honda seems to have decided to continue to raise MSRP and is addressing the dollar parity via 0.9% interest rates or cash back offers for people making cash purchases. As long as they continue to go that route they are going to have to advertise the heck out of it. It is very turn-of-the-century GM-esque and I am not a big fan. In the end the deals aren't that good (at least Honda's) and it seems that Canadians would be wise to continue to wait.

Actually, I think what we have established is that no matter how well Honda does you will make the same tired old post. What kind of obviously-wrong explanation are you planning to make when the TSX and TL are way up several months from now after the new models are out? 4 year old, months away from replacement TL: 4,064 Brand new car-of-the-year CTS: 5,586 GM will wish they could get spanked that well even a year or two after intro. Total Buick SUVs: 4,031 Total Cadillac SUVs: 5,679 Total Hummer: 4,029 Total Pontiac SUVs: 1,998 Outlook: 3,340 Vue: 4, 688 MDX: 4,891 Here's a hint for you: -25% doesn't always mean something "is getting its ass handed to it". Sometimes it just means that the year ago numbers correspond with a strong introduction.

Thanks for the tip. Honda's fuel stack over the years: 1999: ~90HP 134L 450 lbs 2003: ~115HP 66L 220lbs 2007: ~134 HP 52L 147lbs That 500lbs number for GM I indicated in a previous post includes more than just the fuel stack. Therefore I don't think it is direcly comparable to the 147lbs number from Honda.

GM's lead seems to be only in PR announcements these days: :AH-HA_wink: Honda certainly seems to me to be ahead. GM HP: 97 Honda HP: 134 (+38%) GM Cold Start Temp: 13F Honda Cold Start Temp: -22F (35F better) GM Range: 200 Miles on 9lbs of Hydrogen Honda Range: 270 Miles on 9lbs (10% more than last generation which was 8.25lbs) of Hydrogen (+35%) (GM does have a bigger vehicle to move, but that is their own strange choice... I guess they couldn't fit their system into a malibu.) GM System Weight: +500lbs Honda System Weight: ?? (Clarity weighs 3583 lbs) GM 0-60: 12 seconds Honda 0-60: 10 seconds GM Stack Size: "The fuel cell, built at GM’s research facility in Honeoye Falls, New York, is about the size of one of its inline-six truck engines turned sideways.". Honda Stack Size: Looks smaller than that to me.... but it is hard to get good numbers for either GM or Honda. GM: Talking about it Honda: Doing it Sources: http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_33/ http://www.treehugger.com/files/2006/09/gm...x_fuel_cell.php http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/11/honda-unveils-p.html http://corporate.honda.com/environment/fue...=fuel_cells_fcx http://www.supercars.net/cars/3970.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/main.j.../17/mfhon17.xml

"It is expected to meet all applicable 2007 U.S. Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards" Can vehicles actually be on the road before they have been certified?

I really like the idea of the Home Energy Station. Honda seems to be leading in hydrogen. I wonder what the actual cost is to produce one.

http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/st...BN/ctv-business Corvette Z06 1SA is 93,105 with delivery in Canada. The 1LZ package in the US 71,000. I don't understand why you use the Canadian invoice price but not the US invoice price. US buyers often get much better deals than Canadian buyers. If anything, you should use the US invoice price and not the Canadian one. Even with the 3K in modifications and the 5K discount (assuming their is none in the US), the price difference is still in the $14K range... and that is without the tax savings of paying taxes on the less expensive vehicle from the US, or taking an extra 5% off the US price for higher value of the Canadian dollar. Even with the automakers playing these games it is still worth the time. If you ask me, skip the automakers who are playing these games and offering too little too late and just go with a comany like BMW.

Looks like GM is being forced to raise fleet sales to try to keep sales flat Y-On-Y. Page 18: http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/..._Highlights.pdf U.S. Retail/Fleet Mix 3Q2007/3Q2006/YTD2007/YTD2006 % Fleet Sales - Cars 38.1%/33.9%/36.0%/36.1% % Fleet Sales - Trucks 21.6%/17.3%/20.8%/21.3% Total Vehicles 27.8%/24.0%/26.7%/27.2% Fleet is up some 15.8% in Q3 2007 vs Q3 2006. It is up almost enough to eliminate all the retail sales gains in the fist 6 months of the year. In cars, fleet went from 33.9% to 38.1% at the same time that US share went from 21.8% to 20.4%.

The real advantage here is that salesmen and dealerships are making less AND they have a direct line and affect on the automakers. And no, I don't think that bitching to the salesman is going to get ME anywhere at that moment, but it will help to eventually change things. You aren't. You are supposed to lose a sale. You are supposed to mention why to your sales manager. He is supposed to mention it to the dealership owner. He is supposed to bitch to the automaker. The automaker is supposed to lower prices.If that doesn't happen then expect to continue to lose sales. I did the same thing at Sears the other day. 2,000 for an induction cooktop from Sears Canada. The same model is 1,440 from Sears US. I pointed out the price difference and the saleperson said, "Ah, but that is Sears DOT com." And I said "Yes, that is true. But it shows me that the correct selling price for this item is 1,400-1,500 CDN. Buying now would be a mistake. I can wait.". Perhaps she was pissed that she lost (delayed?) a sale. It certainly isn't her fault. But I hope it makes it up the chain. That is much more effective than a letter to Sears. I think my argument is clear and logical. I'm sorry if you are so blinded by emotion that you can't see it.

From another post in this thread. I can't say I've cared to check myself, let alone to go to a GM dealership and ask. It is true that taking advantage of financing is a big advantage for a buyer. But it is also true that the desirable cars don't have impressive financing rates to begin with. Nor does the fact that the Canadian automakers are using financing to screw people into paying a higher price make me feel any better about the situation. Anybody who buys an Impala is a fool... cash or otherwise. Actually it is a much better car than it used to be, but still not worth buying.The good news is that the change is starting to happen: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...PStory/Business http://www.thestar.com/Article/272502 Heh, Chrysler is now offering $9,000 in incentives on the 300C.

25% fleet is an improvement for GM, isn't it? They used to be much higher (1 in 3 or more). How are you calculating? Edit: I see the PR had the retail sales count of 229,294. That means 80,714 or 26% went to fleet. As no one has mentioned it, I will. GM's October sales were actually down 1.1% by the standard means of measuring such things (DSR). I'm not commenting on whether it is good or bad, I'd just hate to see someone show up and accuse someone of playing games with numbers.

I took some flack when the volt was first shown for suggesting the prototype wasn't fully functional. Well now we can see the advanced technology for ourselves: http://sirymarketing.blogspot.com/2007/03/more-on-volt.html I'm not suggesting that there should be more under the hood at this point, but it seems some thought that there was.

You are currently arguing that the "rich" have a moral responsibility to pay GM an extra 6K on an Impala??? That is nonsensical, and therefore from where I sit you are spitting all kinds of crap to protect your income. I get that. I don't want you to lose your level of income. But if the proper price changes happen you will do fine.

I agree with you... except that almost all the recent car introductions for this fall still included the 1-4% markup. If auto companies were really interested in levelling the price, wouldn't they at least hold the line at 0%? I'm affraid it is business as usual.

That is the 4cyl. The V6 gets 19/27.

Interesting link here to actual test data: http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/phev/toyotaPriusHymotionFact.pdf Looks like the bar has been set. In early 2008, for $33K (21K for a prius + 12K for the conversion) you will get you ~160MPG city for the first ~22 miles, > 70 MPG for the next 8 miles, and just over 60MPG for each subsequent mile. ~3.6 kWh of A/C energy used. Looks like this is the 5kWh pack from Hymotion/A123. http://www.hymotion.com/pdf/Specs_PHEV_L5.pdf The A123 kit looks very good compared to this Valence kit they also tested: http://avt.inl.gov/pdf/phev/prius.pdf

Well according to Carbiz it is because GM had to make a brochure that had french in it and you are a whining poser for even questioning it. He would encourage you to buy the car in Canada now, let GM pocket the extra $6K, and you can be out that money in a year or two when things have adjusted and your resale value has tanked by that much more. I'm with you. I'm not even expecting the amazing US deals. I'm just hoping to match MSRP. Please join me in voicing your concern by saving your $$$.

No, they don't. They are simply examples of average people that I know that bought cars from the US. They simply showed me how easy it is. And now I am simply telling other people. And I will consider doing the same thing when the time comes. But it does not make a trend. Rest easy knowing that this will have no effect on your sales. That's fine. If there is that kind of cash on the table then when I ask for a Canadian dealer to match a US price they will have something more to give me. I will evaluate it when the time comes. Yeah, I heard the same thing from the local Denon rep last year when the dollar was .80(?). "Nobody"? Care to think about that again? There is plenty of reason to believe the Canadian dollar will stay strong against the USD.. Even if it did settle back to par, how does that justify the horrible valuation ( 0.6-0.8 ) that auto companies seem to be averaging? People tend to complain more when it is something they actually desire.

Attention is growing. We are starting to see price reduction announcements from major retailers (e.g. Walmart, Zellers). Hopefully they are following up with action (I was looking at appliances the other day and Sears.ca and Sears.com were fairly close on a number of them). Either way consumers are taking notice and are going to start making more demands. I don't know the merit of this particular lawsuit, but I look forward to the end of the extortion of the Canadian automakers. That, or a US BMW 335xi. Spread the word: Anyone who buys a car (that they don't absolutely need) from a Canadian dealership is an idiot. If you work for or own a Canadian dealership and you don't like it, you know to whom you should be complaining.

I have one co-worker, a neighbour, and a friend of a co-worker who have all done it in the past year. None of them are wholesalers. Nor is the process particularly difficult. Don't doubt for a minute that average people are doing this. I fear you are right, and unfortunately that is why we need lawsuits like this. The extortion needs to end.