FUTURE_OF_GM

[quote]This is not the governments problem, it's a free market problem. If they can't sell in Japan, why not elsewhere? I hear sales in China are rosy. If GM can't make money in one market, it's their job to find a new one to sell in, or create a new one altogether, or work on fixing their current market. It's not the government's job to come to the aid of every business that suffers from poor management. We don't want GM to turn into another Northwest Airlines, do we?[/quote] It would be different if it were JUST GM.. But we're talking about ENTIRE sectors here... Autos, Airlines, Steel, Auto Suppliers, Textiles.... [quote]Japans government is doing a great job protecting the interests of their people, I would suggest we wake TFU and start doing the same ![/quote] I agree... But instead of caring someone will just accuse you of being a Communist/Marxist/Protectionist, like they did me. [quote]Who the hell do you think is keeping the US government afloat? US tax revenue? Try the Koreans, Japanese and Chinese. That is who are buying the treasure bonds that are funding the Iraq war, Katrina and the rest of the pork coming out of DC. That is who. Todays economy is so interwoven, and international, the WWII era principles you subscribe to are only small factors in todays world.[/quote] So, because of this we should sacrifice our industry and repay them by buying an asian car, or letting them have unfair advantages? (INCLUDING a free ride from the media and consumers) Hell, once you borrow enough from the bank you own the bank anyway... Pretty soon they'll OWN us... And we will pay the ultimate price. (Of course, it won't be felt on an individual level for YEARS to come) [quote]So what your saying is Korea,Japan and China have the U.S. by the balls?[/quote] Pretty much, see above comments. [quote]Does everyone still think this is how business should be done?[/quote] Apparently "only in america" (And I mean that in the worst way possible) [quote]Out of touch with reality ? Me ? Well heres some reality for you ! America is full of working poor. The working poor in America have had their incomes in decline for a decade. At the same time many areas have had incomes go through the roof.[/quote] ABSOLUTELY! And I can back that up with facts from social studies. Eventhough the economy is "supposedly" improving from all of these "service" jobs our standard of living is tanking. [quote]Yeah...you ARE right. The consumer has been conditioned by THE BIG THREE not to buy domestic...because of all the totally undesirable cars (either in design or quality) that the Big 3 offered for too many years.... That's the only "conditioning" that has gone on.... Sounds like the same old "...it's someone else's fault...." thinking from certain GM loyalists that we've heard way too much lately....[/quote] :rotflmao: And THAT sounds like the same "better than you" elitest diarrhea that has spewed from the media, and certain members of it, as of late. Never taking responsibility for the fact that THEY have destroyed these companies and continue to do AND will ultimately DESPITE the fact that Detroit has made desirable cars for years now. It's a WEAK argument used to justify years of bitching about nothing in order to maintain an outdated and useless "rank" and save face from the sobering reality of destruction they have caused, a reality which should NOT have been tolerated and an END which should not BE tolerated.

I never said anything about choice, or the consumer for that matter.

Offended are we??? Why do need a reason to "rail against" anyone? If I don't like the person or the scenario 'nuff said. there is no unwritten rule saying that anyone has to have justification for why they form opinions a certain way. Maybe I don't like imports or the people who buy them (Not true in reality BTW) and why should I have to justify that? To reassure the scared and the weak so that they can still identify with me? There is a Marilyn Manson song in which Manson sings; "I don't need a reason to hate you the way that I do." Nothing could be more true because ultimately it's my decision and the parameters on which to make MY decision are mine as well. Now, is this how one should feel at all times, not really (one wouldn't be able to function in society) and does it apply here, not at all. But it proves a point nonetheless. It was meant in jest, guess I should've noted that. Sorry if I offended anyone But of course.

Because the consumer is being told not to buy GM, or domestic for that matter. And has been conditioned to not buy domestic for 30 years. It doesn't matter... That's not the story they want you to read... Besides, all of the "Truck sales are dieing" articles will be focused around making Detroit look dumb anyway.

Love the hood, love the grille and the lower intakes BUT the headlights make it look too "bucky" I also like the rear, eventhough the height of the tailights make it look to tall as well. AND, I hate the gawdaweful wing.

LOVE the reverse induction hood AND the exhaust... Other than that... A little too much for my tastes.

GORGEOUS!!!

I LOVE it!!! Well, except for the 1970's-esque Chevrolet rally style wheels.

I agree... The real issues are out of the control of both the UAW and GM... And it's far too late for the government to act (As if they were ever going to anyway) And Josh brings up the downside to this... If the UAW does accept cuts then how will morale affect quality? I know I'd be pretty pissed to have to take a pay cut and destroy my family's lifestyle and GM would be the easiest (But not really the right) target.

meh....... Kinda lame, hard to pronounce but not as bad as it could've been.

Sounds like GM is screwing up the Tahoe packages/trim like they did the SRX... My thinking is this; these are all BAD things... The average person/buyer is probably not going to be able to afford the LTZ and thus all the comparison tests/buyer opinions will automatically put the Tahoe at a competitive disadvantage. No XM, No 20s, no dual zone, no choice of interior, no painted mirrors.... No sale. I just think this is GM cost cutting and, a bad thing. Then again this is a pretty uneducated opinion. I don't know much about the vehicle yet.

Just like the Envoy XUV it was very innovative yet wasn't marketed worth of crap. (Like 75% of GM's cars) I bet the average consumer doesn't even know what a Maxx is.

This is nice... But compared to the BIGGER CNN C.R. story a mere drop in the bucket that will go unnoticed by the media and consumers. Hmmmm.. Funny that was entirely omitted from the CNN story. (left media :bs:) Welcome to reality.... Now if GM and Ford would just learn how to promote some of this, the *MIGHT* not die. Enough ass kissing there to last me for the rest of the week. The consumer won't know unless you inform them... I didn't even know this. The reality of the situation is simple... The people/outlets conveying the message will not ALLOW the consumer to know the truth. I know Detroit still needs to improve BUT, so far they have received no credit at all.

[quote]Nissan and Hyundai had models in both the highest and lowest rankings of Consumer Reports predicted-reliability survey this year, according to the magazine.[/quote] Which shows you how reliable testimonials are in the first place... There's no possible realistic way a company can be both LAST and FIRST. [quote]Of the 31 cars that earned the top rating, only two were from U.S.-based manufacturers -- the remaining 29 vehicles were from Japanese automakers, and none represented European brands. Almost half of the top 31 -- 15 vehicles -- were manufactured by Toyota.[/quote] What a surprise, Toyota paid good money for this... Seriously though, if you rave about Toyota's for years to the same narrow focused audience, don't you think your reader base is going to become a little "LIKE MINDED?" Oh yeah, and any of you who thought Toyota was now going to get it's dues because of the recalls of late. This marks the slate being wiped clean for them. [quote]Of the vehicles with the worst reliability, 22 were from U.S.-based manufacturers, 20 from European brands, four from Japanese makers and two from South Korean companies.[/quote] And KICK 'EM while they're down... Oh yeah, and Europe is now better than Detroit again. Who cares though, it's only our industry. CR's bias has become EVEN heavier as Detroit's products have gotten stronger (reading audience included) [quote]Hybrid models turned in above-average results, despite their complex mechanical drivetrains.[/quote] :rolleyes: [quote]Mid-sized SUVs Lexus RX400h (hybrid)* Toyota Highlander Toyota 4Runner (V-8) Infiniti FX35[/quote] The tides are changing. [quote]Honda Ridgeline* Toyota Tundra[/quote] What a surprise...

I never said anything about the media... I was actually refering to GM and their apparent inability to get the details right. And yes, again, as in the GMT360s have been recalled AGAIN and as in, yet another GM recall. And yes, you'd better believe the media will be all over this by tomorrow.

It's funny how preconceived notions, like this, that have been drilled into people's heads come out in certain instances. If you've had so many repair bills then why the loyalty for 15 years??? I'm not trying to be mean, but my dad said the same thing yesterday. And he did this KNOWING, KNOWING that we've owned just as many, if not more RELIABLE domestics than imports. For example, the Toyota we have now has 237,000 original miles on it and has been a VERY reliable car. Yet, my 1990 Lumina that I recently sold had 235,000 trouble free miles on it. BUT, you don't see my dad (A devout Chevrolet/GMC man---but not a domestic nazi like me) raving about how our domestics have been as reliable and well built as our imports. Yet he still spouts that line of drivel about imports being 'such great cars'..... GM and Ford need to launch a MASSIVE joint campaign to change perceptions once and for all, now that they're getting the products to back it up. Something has to be done. Again, I'm not being mean haypops, and I'm not at all trying to undermine your credibility. I'm simply relating it to my experiences and what I think is a phenomenon.

Here we go again :rolleyes:

A very good read.... I'm very torn on this issue. I've ranted and raved against the UAW for a LONG time. But, the reality of the situation is that we are dealing with people. People who's lifestyles will be adversely effected in a very negative way. It's not just a corporate entity were talking about, it's peoples lives, savings and futures. I come from blue collar roots and I've been a part of a major union (Teamsters) and I feel bad that these people are going to be hit so hard. BUT, it is vital for the survival of the company and there is no other alternative. On that note, I do agree that paycuts should be taken across the board, including all the way up to Wagoner but not as drastic in middle management as they already get paid less than line workers (To the best of my knowledge)

Yep.. I'll be the first one to do it too... Know why? Because this is a GM website and I hate Toyota so bad I can't stand it. I'd throw a dinner party for a baby killer before I'd have a Toyota exec at my house. EDIT: Before anyone esle gets offended, this was meant as a joke So, on that note, eventhough I've ALWAYS been against hybrids as I think they're just a lame outlet for hypocritical boomers to spew their garbage about how they actually care about precious kids of the world, instead of really conserving fuel. BRING ON THE HYBRIDS GM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Oh and uhhh, GM is one better because their applications will use the technology to the scale that it will achieve the greatest possible savings.) Silverado/Sierra... Been on sale for a year now. And don't say it isn't a real hybrid just because they didn't buy the technology from Toyota (As apparently to some they seem to be the only company that can design a "REAL" hybrid--Guess that came from the media). If the government classifies it as a hybrid then apparently it is. Also of note: Anyone ever notice that Domestic producers offer the most hybrid models of any of the continental producers and that according to hybrid websites, they have the most hybrids planned to go into production as well? I didn't think so... Because that's not what the spinmasters WANT you to think.

BUT, the damage has already been done and thus Toyota has succeeded. They along with the "buy into anything Toyota" media have single handedly transformed the face of the industry, destroyed Detroit's image further and ENHANCED Toyota's standing as the top dog in yet ANOTHER category of the market. This technology is worthless unless used to scale, yet NAIVE america and Toyota's friends in the media bought into it and perpetuated this disaster into mainstream think. Now... Where do we stand? Hybrids are becoming more and more ridiculed as people find out that thy're pretty much a myth and a hoax, Toyota has ALREADY cashed in on the loyalty of the market and will retain that loyalty regardless of where "Hybrid technology" goes and GM and Ford, partially because of fate (Which is always negative to Detroit) and partially because of ignorance (Ignoring hybrid technology and the benefits of marketing it OR counter marketing it) are both poised to cash in on the market with many hybrid offerings JUST AS the "feel good" image of this FAD burns down and just as the media is beginning to wise up and BASH/illustrate the SHORT FALLS of the technology. (Coincidence, maybe... Seeing an opportunity to kick Detroit and accelerate Toyota, MORE LIKELY--the facts were always right in front of their noses) This is a great comparison, and I defend GM and Ford proudly. BUT, it was sheer stupidity to just sit back and watch the media and Toyota destroy, via a useless car and a pleathora of lies and PR engineering, what LITTLE credibility they (GM and FMC) had gained in the fuel efficiency race simply because they (GM and FMC) wouldn't/didn't engage in MARKETING or INFORMING THE CONSUMER or DEFENDING THEMSELVES (Which seems to be a common theme)

Cept if it were domestic, that would read "Is flat out ugly" I love how the PR spinsters have subtly included "the kids" in so many aspects of this.. NO DOUBT subconciously reinforcing reccommending them to first time buyers and a younger audience Nice how they single out a 'big evil truck' from 'a loser corporation' owner and pick on him. I also love how they picked "successful" people to drive the cars, thus reinforcing the "higher, better" concept of buyer verses domestics.. Or put simply, aspirational lifestyles. BTW, the first thing anyone with ANY knowledge of psychology will tell you is NOT to base decisions on testimonials because they are COMPLETELY baseless... The testifier feels as if he owes something for getting free wheels for a week, and therefore gives EXCELLENT reviews. Besides, is this a review or an advertisement? You decide. Honda did this same 'feel good' shit with the Ridgeline. Obviously included for the "conquest" aspect to inspire followers... ohhh, and a nice little kick in the teeth at the end because we all hate Detroit and the hatred comes double from Detroit publications.... Her Focus is 4 years older, the Civic SHOULD be better. Besides, no YOUNG person should be stuck driving a domestic!?!?!? But of course, it's asian and we're conditioned to endorse ALL asian cars. It's only right (Those of you with psychology backgrounds know what I'm referring to) Oh, the article is by a Lienert... No wonder it's dumb and baseless. And why did they target the Focus??? Because it is the only established Detroit small car (And the only one that appeals to young people)

As if they haven't already punished the company enough... stock prices at 1/3 of what they used to be, shitty ratings, the constant 'kick in the teeth' media they generate. You know, status quo for traditional american industry. I think GM should move to China or Canada, screw this place... (SERIOUSLY) All in favor?

You betcha... Toyota's PR praises will be sung from the roof tops and NAIVE America will buy it hook line and sinker along with a brand, new shiney Toyota. This is the SHADY business I'm talking about at the same time they're 'reassuring' or distracting us, they're stabbing us in the back by destroying what we've built. Toyota never DREAMED of creating that many American jobs, much less did it. GM and Ford need to band together and launch a MASSIVE PR war against this. ESPECIALLY before Toyota hypnotizes our government into this think (Which it already has hit home with it, since Michigan's own Graholm is always advocating the company at the expense of Detroit) The media and anti-Detroit are getting their way... GM will finally fall from greatness and we'll all be peace, warm, fuzzy and happiness driving a Prius. Kill (Or debilitate as much as possible) Detroit has ALWAYS been the plan and it is coming full circle. Chrysler was weakened and sold off (All the while, the American people were being lied to [a merger of equals] to dispel dissention--see the patern?) then it was Ford's turn which they've practically run into the ground (The only reason it hasn't been sold off or bankrupted is because of it's Ford Family ties) and now it's GM's turn (Since around 2002, after they finished with Ford) Trust me, Toyota WILL pass GM, America WILL buy into this, ironically (more like planned) just in time to be "patriotic" and buy an "american made Tundra" and GM and Ford will eventually rot into nothingness or be disassembled over the long term unless some eyes are opened.

OOOOhhh Yeah, she's an amazing singer! I can't wait 'til their second album hits!

My top five off the top of my head, this wasn't easy. These also change sometimes, except #1 THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS: 5) Chad Gray from Mudvayne 4) Sully Erna from Godsmack. 3) Randy Blythe from Lamb Of God 2) Dez Fafara from DevilDriver (formerly of Coal Chamber) 1) James Hetfield from MetallicA (Will always be the ultimate front man IMO) VERY honorable mentions: off of the top of my head include David Draiman (Disturbed) Jonathan Davis (KoRn) Cliff Rigano (Dry Kill Logic) Chester Bennington (Linkin Park) Rob Zombie (Rob/White Zombie) Corey Taylor (Slipknot/Stone Sour) Wayne Static (Static X) Martin Cock (American Head Charge) Lajon Witherspoon (7Dust) Rob Flynn (Machine Head) & the old singer of Drowning Pool (Not sure what his name was)