FUTURE_OF_GM

You know, it's sad but I tend to agree with this assessment.

It's not that I get mad about people not purchasing domestics; that's their choice. I get mad about people NOT EVEN CONSIDERING domestics based on what they've been told or been told to do. If a buyer were to cross shop Ford, GM and Toyota, then buy the Toyota because he liked it best then fine, more power to him. BUT if a buyer has never owned a domestic car or never directly had a bad experience with one, but automatically crosses GM and Ford off of his list before shopping them simply because so and so's brother supposedly had this or that problem, or because a biased LA Times reporter said it isn't cool to buy domestic, THAT'S when I get pissed. And I think a lot of that goes on in todays market. Either people who have never even been exposed to a domestic in the first place or have had 0 problems with one still automatically write GM and Ford off because of "what they heard" or "what they read"

Good point... The imports are VERY smart by not letting the UAW/CAW spread it's cancer to their US operations.

True.... I guess my bias slanted things From a capacity standpoint ( bulk jobs) yes, GM doesn't need more capacity. From a design standpoint, absolutely not. I'm not suggesting GM abandon the market, not at all. Agreed. Agreed, my sentiments exactly. I should've been less vague.... By investment I meant strictly capacity and job creation, such as what Toyota is doing now. But I agree that GM still needs to step it up on the product side as far as engineering and innovation. As far as Toyota, well, my beef is with the unfair advantages they have and the fact that they always exploit GM's weaknesses through an adoring media that is all too often happy to facilitate. And I disagree with the media part too... Even if GM were to make stellar vehicles but the media chose to rate them badly then they simply will not survive because the of media scrutiny combined with their damaged reputation (Yes, GM's fault to a large degree) So, essentially it's the choice of the media whether or not GM survives because they are the direct line of communication to the consumer and they can either destroy or rebuild GM. With all of the ill will for GM in the media (Admitted in some cases even) and the fact that most consumers already view the imports in higher regard, I just tend to be very pessimistic about a GM comeback and/or media praise.

I've seen all of one MC since the new one broke cover and that was at an auto show... GM should try STOCKING some MC's before assuming they don't sell. Or they could just give the market away to a competing manufacturer like they have with every other coupe market. :rotflmao: It'll be a hard lesson learned.

[quote name='Polish_Kris' date='Nov 21 2005, 04:32 PM']I truly doubt that your conspiracy theory is correct.[/quote] First off, I never said anything about a conspiracy theory. [quote]If the media controlled the car market, they would be very pro american![/quote] Why? After all "Toyota is investing in America" remeber? Seriously, there is A LOT of ill will in the media toward domestics, anyone can see that on recall day. [quote]So, don't the gun and start accusing the media automatically.[/quote] Look, all I'm saying is that media in general influences pop culture. It's a fact. Would the Escalade sell so well without the endorsment of hip-hop artists? Would people buy Abercrombie jeans at a premium over American Eagle if it weren't for being told that they're better? Would the G6 have gotten such positive exposure during it's launch had it not been for Opra? Would Toyota seal a sale on a Corolla that has roughly the same statistic reliability as a Cobalt if it weren't for Consumer Reports reccommending them? These are very basic examples... [quote]I think it's hard for you to swallow the fact that GM is in trouble now because of its poor management, and forcing the public their "gotta have" cars, shoving them down their throats.[/quote] Funny.... Yet the other day people here were b*tching because of my negativity toward GM.. Which is it today? Am I a pessimist or in denial? [quote]So you start playing the blame game.[/quote] The media is partly to blame for GM's problems... [quote]You're doing the same thing the KKK does, by saying its the black people's fault why America is the way it is.  And the same thing Hitler did in Nazi Germany, but saying "It's the fault of the Jews why Germany is in ruins"  You're pointing fingers at the media and the imports.  "It's their fault".[/quote] :rotflmao: Yeah, because I'm an ignorant redneck commiting genocide. [quote]No, I said it once and I'll say it again, it's GM's own fault why this is happening![/quote] Dude seriously... I get such amusement out of your responses... I can rant for 2 pages on something and you wont say a word, then I throw out a one-liner that YOU misunderstood AFTER 2 other people have BLATANTLY attacked the media for bias in the same thread and you go into a seizure of b*tching and attacking about how I'm the anti-christ and how it actually MATTERS what you think. You're no different than me, you have you're opinion and I have an opinion. We're not saving Christmas here, it's an automotive website. I'm not saying I'm right, it's simply an opinion. But I do think that the majority of people in the industry and here on this site would agree that while maybe not the terror that I make it out to be, the media is biased. [quote]It's easy to blame others, instead of solving the problem.  GM needs to get rid of those 70 year old white guys who run it and take more control over the UAW unions who, and start the company on a fresh note. [post="46246"][/post] [/quote] I do agree with that.

Good point. But I would like to know the effect of fleet sales and how much they skew the numbers. Not to mention the lack of a Japanese presence in the truck market. For example; are people buying GM trucks simply because they like them or simply because Honda doesn't build a decent alternative.

Well Hudson, I'm sure I don't need to bore you with this stuff but I'll bite just for the heck of it. First, I think this is an argument that will increasingly be used against GM when Toyota starts getting scrutiny and I'll counter it with this; GM still employess more people here and contributes more to this economy than Toyota. Sure, Toyota is investing here, but they're not investing here just so they can employ americans, they're investing here because it makes them profit. So, that means most of the money is still going back to Japan because the goal of a business isn't to be a good citizen after all, it's to make money. GM has contributed and is still contributing to our economy for close to 100 years now and while I'm glad Toyota is employing americans, I don't think that should be forgotten. Secondly, GM has to sustain itself. thousands of Americans, you know the same americans that won't buy an american car, depend on the company for dividends, healthcare and pension. Therefore, to invest in america, a market in which GM has been in perpetual decline for 30 years and already has capacity issues in would be a VERY BAD business move. GM has done what it should've done and what any smart corporation would've done and taken what limited money it has and invested in growth areas such as China and Latin America. If GM were to invest in america which increasingly won't buy it's cars in the first place that'd be suicide. Not to mention that any facility GM build here would almost certainly include the costly and greedy UAW. It's very unfair to point the finger at GM and say that they are reluctant to invest in america (Which is what some will do-trust me) when the coin has both sides. When american's start investing in american auto makers then american auto makers might start investing in america, given that capacity from a bygone era, the UAW, healthcare and all other unfair hinderances against these companies are addressed. Until then, onward to China IMO. The fate of the company and the fate of those americans that the company serves depends on it.

No not quite.... I'd prefer a Fusion :)

Could be argued... The average consumer isn't aware of Buicks HIGH quality rankings because GM never markets them... But yes, just a cheap shot by the author more than anything. I'm sorry, but the Cobalt isn't a halo car... I agree 110%!!! Which completly contrasts the first part of the article... Which means GM needs to CHANGE those perceptions! ***I do agree with this article though. Of all the GM divisions Buick has the LEAST direction right now. I do however think that the Lucerne is the closest car to Buick's supposed new direction that we have seen yet and I do think that if GM plays its cards right the Lucerne will be a BIG success.

UM.. Yeah.. Pretty sad when you can't read the emblem on the back of the car. Either the review wasn't taken seriously or the author and editor were idiots that shouldn't be in journalism. Not a bad review though.

I've never been that impressed with the Boxster... The reason 10 Best is so complicated now is because there are SO MANY good cars and IMO it's the only way C&D can continue to peddle their OPINIONS as facts.

As always, thank you for the ray of hope AH-HA!

I wondered the same thing this weekend at the auto show... Style-wise Detroit has the advantage, power-wise Detroit has the overall advantage and value-wise Detroit has the advantage... So, that leaves 1) reliability, which is a moot point this day in age and 2) the need to feel 'correct' and 'educated' in your decision to purchase. Therefore, IMO, The real CORE problem is image, which is of course controlled by the media. GM and Ford have failed to educate the consumer of many things and the media has twisted the knife as much as they can. It most certainly does. It's the only Camry for sale right now, is it not? I'd venture to say that the average Camry buyer doesn't even know that a new camry is so close to debuting.

LOL Hell, why don't we just go all the way and have a LIVE reporter ask *WHY* someone would buy such an 'inferior' car at every GM purchase. He could even interview (belittle) the buyer him or herself! This is just more of the media reveling in their victory. On a related note: Is that the hot air I hear quickly leaking from the "Nissan revolution" bubble? Why, I think it is... Seems like the gas scare has REALLY hurt Ford and GM... They have NO first rate car offerings to fall back on *YET*

Good news... I guess today isn't all bad.

Might as well get the punching bag because I think we both know the answer to that one.

I agree 100% That's why the Camry and Accord, for example, are so popular IMO. To many people they're the only choices.. And what's sad is that OTHER non-American companies can easily make it onto the list (Like Nissan) yet domestics can't. In order to succeed in the future I think Detroit Inc is going to have to be as good at engineering PR and image as they are cars.

[quote]part of this is the result of people living in a self defeatist state. its NOT AT ALL good if its American designed or made. it extends to more than just cars, but at the root of this is the love of all things NOT AMERICAN as the answer to all our own problems and insecurities. I am not saying, don't buy what's right for you, or what your choice is.  I am saying, do the proper research, make the choice YOURSELF, and TRY to look past the media hype from time to time.  Status is a main reason folks buy imports in droves, moreso than the whole 'Toyota has legendary reliability' thing. We can't have any importance in this great big world, if we buy the unfashionable car (Chevy).  We need to buy an import to make us seem smarter, hipper, more attractive to all our friends. We need popular culture and the media to tell us what we should drive.[/quote] EXACTLY!!!! Excellent post!!!! [quote]That's not to suggest that a lot of the domestics products still don't suck in some/many ways..for example, a 2006 Lucerne with a dated pushrod engine in lieu of a modern 3.6.............but the problem is the image and status factor is merely amplifying what are otherwise not hugely better advantages, if any, in a lot of market segments.[/quote] Again, excellent remarks!!! [quote]Eventually, a whole new wave of folks who have never owned Toytas before but lived through a life cycle owning one will one day discover what the WEAKNESSES are.  Toyota's historical customer clientele is so blind/sheepish in accepting whatever is bad about the products now, but if a whole new breed of customers who have never experienced them before start whing about things like flimsy sheetmetal, thin paint, undurable suspension components, poor sales and serivce experiences due to arrogance, blandness, costlier parts and service.......... it will take years to breed the UNSATISFIED toyota customers.[/quote] I don't think there will ever be an anti-Toyota customer base. The media will not allow it, they're too influencial. [quote]its is time for a protectionist movement IMHO in this country, in many industries.  this article alone could sow the seeds of such a movement.[/quote] Doubtful, but that would be nice... [quote]buy what you need and like...import or domestic..... but PLEASE America, don't BLINDLY discount your American companies.  Make the choice yourself, and please, at least drive their products yourself first.[/quote] It'll never happen. [quote]those 30,000 laid off folks are now on YOUR payroll (i.e. your tax dollars).[/quote] Which is priceless! [quote]WHEN toyota officially becomes #1, they will assume the position of being targeted by consumer groups, they will be the main target by lawsuit happy plaintiffs and their lawyers.  The press, legal community, customers, EVERYONE will then say....MMMMMM here's our new king of the hill.  WE NEED TO BRING THEM DOWN![/quote] Doubtful, but that would be nice... [quote]it will become interesting to see how Toyota acts on the defensive in that position.[/quote] Perfectly, just like with everything else. [quote]They will not be able to get away with all the pompous advertising they do now.  They will not be able to the 'know it alls' they profess to be.  The game will become different, and they will be marked.  I hope they know the saying 'you get what you ask for'. [post="46109"][/post] [/quote] I certainly hope so.

People have been conditioned to not give domestics a second look. Doesn't matter how good they are. Just my opinion. I disagree... The money (profit) STILL goes somewhere, either America or Japan. But they are part of the problem. Simply being "the competition" makes them that no matter how you look at it. LOL :D More like Media: 100 GM: -10

Had my first look at a Lucerne in person this weekend. I must say that I was floored! Pictures absolutely do not do this car justice. It will be a HUGE success if Buick plays it's cards right. Put it this way; I'm 23 and although I'm a Buick fan I've never ACTUALLY enivisioned myself buying one of their cars (Classic Buicks aside) but if I had the money I would SERIOUSLY consider the Lucerne!

I think he means on the car side of things... But, yeah I could see GM losing Texas... I mean after all "Toyota has done so much more for them" :rolleyes: I'm not so sure about that... Sales might level out a bit more, but I don't think they'll tank. The HHR has a lot more to offer than the PT and times have changed with the big gas scare. The key to a successful HHR will be keeping it fresh. If GM just lets it languish like Chrysler did with the PT, then yes sales will probably tank and incentives will be needed.

Thanks for clearing that up, it's great to hear! This is a complete and total shocker to me... It seems that the Impala is doing well around here and was getting good reviews and selling well everywhere else. I thought for sure it would continue building momentum from the last model (Of course, a lot of the last model was fleet)

I would tend to question the following three: Mazda MX-5 Audi A3 Porsche Boxster

That's what I'm worried about.... I thought the Impala was doing, and always has done well. Sure, I could see a reduction when the GP goes out of production IF GM replaces it with a RWD G8 but other than that I don't know.... Unless they have a lot of built in capacity up there that is not being used or unless GM is going to try to grow the G6, Aura and Malibu into their mainstay volume cars to compete with the CamCordImas of the world. It does bother me that GM is crippling/destroying one of their highest ranked facilities and I hope this isn't them conceding the car market and saying; "Maybe someday sales will rebound, but right now we can't justify the investment" because that would be typical old GM think; to handicapp themselves with an outdated design and then think that the market is drying up.