FUTURE_OF_GM

I would tend to agree on a grand scale... I just don't agree with some of his comments from the past few days and I'm voicing why (However "dramatic" or "grandiose" that might be) It's nothing personal, on my part anyway.

I am still hoping for more than a "Tahoe truck" THe Avalanche was 'supposedly' different.... Hopefully the Silverado won't suffer the same fate.

Your point being??? I was talking about YOUR agenda. FOR THE FOURTH TIME NOW: I never said they did and in fact I STATED that they didn't I'm pretty sure I know who pays your salary and that would qualify you as an insider by nature, albeit not the sort of insider that we're accustomed to here. Fair enough. LOL... I love that line and I'll humor you... "FOG take a valium." The FUNNY THING is this; Valium is NOT used to treat anger. It is USED to treat anxiety, thus rendering it USELESS to me. As for the rhetoric, well I think I've got that down just fine. NOT for some of us.... GM failing will be detremental to me but also more importantly the THOUSANDS that depend on the company for their wellbeing (Something that greedy americans tend not to think about anymore for some reason) BTW, I didn't mean to pick a fight or sound overly abrasive (I know; something I'm not very good at) I was just trying to defend my thread.

LOL... This from the man who thinks GM should PAY for its sins apparently. You know how I can pick out the "insiders" or "media" on this site? They're always the ones that take a crap on ALL the positives GM threads on this board simply because they are HELLBENT on killing GM (Well, either that or APPARENTLY brainwashed into thinking GM is going to die or SHOULD die no matter what) It's no f*cking wonder that GM gets the press it gets if the sentiment THROUGHOUT the analysts and media is as bad as it is throughout the "insiders" and "media" here. Keep in mind commoners (Like me) these people have OPINIONS and AGENDAS just like you and me and a lot of the time it seems to shine through. (Make GM pay or the only GM divisions relevant are Chevrolet/Cadillac/Saturn, just to pinpoint 2, etc.) I'm aware that numbers don't lie and I never qualified numbers in ANY of my posts in this topic and made it clear that my attitude was a result of PURE observation to be taken with a grain of salt. And P.S. The majority of G6s I've seen ARE NOT fleet because they are 1) loaded GTs or GTPs and 2) I've lived and went to school with these people for the past 3-4 months. I've never known someone to rent a car for 3-4 months.

Agreed on all accounts... The wheel covers are more hideous than the replacements you can buy at Wal-Mart. But more importantly, it seems that Pontiac has become the "catch all" GM division that Chevrolet was circa 2000 (Excluding trucks) They have an AWESOME halo car but not much on the side of volume entries. So why doesn't GM say; "Hey, we realize that you're just getting bones right now, so here's $20 bucks to personalize and BETTER your existing products until we can get some REAL show stoppers in the showroom." That way, Pontiac could DIFFERENTIATE and BETTER the G5 and G6 lines, keep the Solstice fresh and not let the GP get COMPLETELY irrelevant. The G6 and G5 are the foundation for VERY competitive and VERY enticing cars, they just need to go to finishing school, and since Pontiac is no longer so much a volume division per se and isn't in a great position anyway, why not GET a little closer to what Pontiac used to be back in the 60's (The bad boy of GM) and spice the cars up a bit? What could it hurt? It might even increase sales and create buzz! And, when combined with the Solstice, it would begin to rebuild the divisions image for the introduction of the REAL hot stuff (New GTO/G8, NG G6, Ep II G6) in a few years (On the cheap to boot) The G6 IMO has been a success.... I see MORE of them around here than I see Cobalts or Malibus. In fact, the only GM car that comes close to the same numbers around here is the new Impala. I've seen 2 2007 Camries since they launched, quite a few Lucernes/DTS (Which seems to be the more popular of the 2) FWIW.

My question is; why have so much redundancy with the Commander and GC anyway??? DCX needs to polish up the Commander a bit, jack the price, pitt it against Hummer and call it a flagship. Of course, that might not fit into their projected sales numbers too well. I just think it would be ideal to have the new Jeep become sort of a BI-POLAR entity with the introduction of the Compass... Why not market it, the Liberty and the GC as their volume driven everyman products and why not market the Wrangler, Patriot (Maybe) and Commander as the HERITAGE driven OFF ROADER products that are as rugged as a Hummer, yet not quite as pricey. I think there has been SO MUCH opportunity squandered with Jeep. The name and the reputation has SO much equity that DCX is JUST beginning to tap into. I think they should offer Jeep Trucks as well kinda like the old Golden Eagles and Commanches. Just limit the volume so as not to cannabalize Dodge.

Many of you might remember the VERY heated debate that took place between Croc and I back when the Escalade made it's debut in which I argued vehemently against the new 'slade stating that I thought it had lost the "IT" factor. In that debate Croc said that I often end up eating crow because of my stubborn and unwaivering opinions. So I'm here today to be a good sport and say serve up the crow because I looked at a new Escalade in the flesh today for the first time. All I have to say is; WOW! I was very impressed and encouraged by the new Tahoe. I am equally impressed and encouraged by the new Yukon (Which while VERY nice is a little too feminine for me---NOT a bad thing though) So I figured, the Escalade will be nice but nothing earth shattering since I've seen it's foundations. Boy was I wrong! The Escalade is probably the most desireable SUV I've ever seen in my entire life. (And I'm not an SUV buyer-per se) It's BEAUTIFUL and has the same, if not MORE presence than the outgoing model. And, if this is the future of Cadillac and this sort of 'SPOT ON' execution and attention to detail is the future of GM as a whole, then we're all in for a HUGE turnaround and a GREAT ride as GM enthusiasts. Great job GM! (I still haven't seen the Denali though, and I'm sure I'll like it better than the run-of-the-mill Yukon.)

Now THAT'S a good review.... And from a Lienert on top of it all!!!

[cheap shot mode] That only matters if it's a domestic. [/cheap shot mode] PolishKris: Mother Teresa... LOL That's cool though! AS far as the U.S invading Canada... Meh, I think we've already got enough purposeless wars to keep us occupied for now... (If you get my drift)

Anyone else find it funny that the big Motor Trend Car of the Year and Truck of the Year awards along with the North American Car of the Year and Truck of the year awards aligned JUST PERFECTLY with the new HUGE advertising push Honda is doing right now????? ***FUNNY*** how those lined up so well.... Honda got 4 new BS awards (That it didn't deserve) to smear all over it's edgy new advertising. I've seriously NEVER seen a Honda advertising push as large as the one we're seeing right now. And an even bigger surprise: One of the vehicles awarded is the new hot model that we're trying to kick start sales on (Maybe they feel guilty for quietly panning the last Civic) and the other vehicle awarded is a STRUGGLING model that just needed a little more of a PR nudge (After the press FORCED it's HOLINESS down our throats for a year with a fervor previously unseen even in THIS biased day in age) that competes in the last segment dominated by the companies that they have tried so hard to destroy for 2 decades. (Explains why they kicked it up a notch) It's also FUNNY how this all coincides with Honda receiving more nods than any other company on the coveted Consumer Reports list. (Well, at least I haven't seen any factual analysis) I just thought all of this was FUNNY.... However unrelated (Yeah Right) it all might be.

My point exactly.... Anymore it's a proverbial coin toss.... The problem is; this is where the BAD image of the domestics (CREATED and PERPETUATED by the media) come into play and the Honda and Toyota... AND Sonata all automatically get the nod... And the media purposely isn't doing anything to correct this imbalance, in fact they're adding to it when possible.

Sorry guys, the GTO is nice... But I'd buy the Charger in a heartbeat!

BECAUSE THAT'S THE WAY THE AUTO RAGS WORK THESE DAYS.... AND THEIR CREIBILITY HAS BEEN SUFFERING. Car and Drivel did the same thing with the Fusion.... Glowing first write up, then a so-so comparison test and the readers REALLY blasted them for it too. One said "Thanks... It was like reading 2 seperate magazines" to which Ed. replied smugly "You're welcome" as if to imply that they ARE biased and "what of it?" It all boils down to the fact that EVERYTHING is subjective these days and a fair journalist will give a fair review and the biased one (The majority) give reviews like this.... It's almost as if they wrote the piece on the Fusion up, then decided at the last minute to put the car in last... The article is largely positive, then the conclusion literally chops it's legs out from under it. Gotta make sure to leave that negative impression... It's all and increasingly, people are beginning to see it.

And the Fusion interior is worse than this??!?!?!?! The whole Fusion part of the review is straight up biased At least it's gotten fair/good press overall. I have a feeling this BAD review is because of it's recent sales success. WE don't highlight Toyota shortcomings...

While I don't disagree and I DO love the RR Sport. I could argue that Hummer and Jeep BOTH have a higher respect for offroad prowess because they are volume divisions, if for nothing else. I agree 100% BUT I've seen the CTS and I think it's probably the most revolutionary new GM product in 20 years.. NO JOKE, the product is finally here (Of course, I'm no insider either so things could change without me knowing) LOL.... Why should GM BEG for our support???? They KNOW how much trouble they're in (Eventhough they haven't panicked in the press--for good reason) Furthermore, GM has done nothing to lose my respect. EVery car I've owned from them has been excellent and has served it's purpose beautifully... NOT TO MENTION they are a HUGE part of our american history and culture which should count for SOME respect anyway (Although maybe not enough to warrent a purchase) THis sounds like an elitest (READ: Media) point of view... MAKE GM PAY!!!!! PAY FOR WHAT THEY'VE DONE!!!! THE HORRIBLE SINS THAT THEY CAN NEVER BE FORGIVEN FOR NO MATTER HOW GOOD THEY ARE!!!!!! And it's a lot of the reason why GM IS failing so badly now, it's a self fulfilling prophecy... Why the animosity???? Why does GM need a literal timeout???? The last 100 years of cars has been more GOOD than bad BY FAR, yet people such as yourself are hellbent on killing GM despite a turnaround JUST TO PROVE A POINT. GM puts out a few bad cars and that's cause for their death DESPITE all they've contributed to this country and despite the MILLIONS of good vehicles they've made and lives they've saved and enhanced????? MORE is at work here IMO. Coming to a GM website and telling us to repent for our 'sins of GM' sounds self loathing and out of touch, or maybe I just don't get it because apparently the media and half of america does. Or maybe they were just weak GM fans who jumped ship in the face of the import 'revolution' and sold out. It's a sad day that someone can state the obvious in a post on a GM board about the competitors of the Escalade. AND state it in the same context as an auto 'journalist' would in relation to Detroit, yet he is supposed to defend himself, on this GM BOARD no less, whilst you tell us to turn our back on GM completely without even giving us proof or at least good reasons why that post was wrong, just because... Are you sure you don't write for an auto rag in your spare time? P.S. I'm not trying to be personally critical to you enzl, I realise my views are communist-like in relation to GM and probably bear the same questions, but I just don't understand the mindset that produced that part of your post.

I'm not worried about it... I've got a new fan!!! (Obviously since he took the time to view my page) and personal attacks don't bother me so much (Remember Baddabing?---I accept that some here don't like me, in fact I enjoy it)

But does it offer BETTER acceleration?!?!?!? Does it offer BETTER muscle car feeling???? And there you go... Apparently, GM cars have to be BETTER than Toyotas to not be "pathetic and crappy" And while I was at it, I offered a common SUBJECTIVE qualifier that has to be "there" for a win. Except character, class and performance. Gotta protect those Japan Inc. team mates... Of course, I forgot, those are the only companies worthy of 'wool over their eyes' buyers

This is so true... Hey THAT'S RIGHT!!!! And the Canadians are the first on my list!!! Just like when Hitler invaded Poland buddy. And thanks for the views, that survey is pretty funny.

That paragraph right there says it all.... And it is yet another plea from GM to the press. They'll not stop until bankruptcy though, if then. But I'm sure out of ALL the 'journalists' that went to the press event 95% will focus on the negatives and blow the effect up even more with SENSATIONAL headlines. Anyway... Things are definitely looking up but GM still has a lot of work to do ESPECIALLY when it comes to share. I have no doubt in my mind that Toyota will surpass GM both globally and in the U.S. not to long from now. (Especially if the media rhetoric continues) Either way though.... MY lesson hard learned is that a smaller healthier GM is better than a broken BIG GM. Now if we could just fix Ford (Yeah right, the media nailed that coffin shut before they even started destroying GM, only the long slow free fall into death is left)

So I guess this is a good thing (For GM anyway)? I'll admit I don't know much about it. Is it good that we're scaling back engineers when SO much product needs to be flawlessly executed?

I never implied ANY numbers in that statement. EQUITY and appeal does not equal numbers. If that were the case then GM could sell 200,000 Z06s a year. My bad... I thought the latest iteration was introduced in 1997. BUt I do remember 1999 now. Look man, no offense but we all know your "DATA DRIVEN; I'M AN INSIDER" spiel... This is neither an insider exclusive nor data exclusive forum. It's a place for DISCUSSION. And I even qualified the post with this DISCLAIMER: "I know this is just personal observation and doesn't mean jack in the grand scheme of things." Just because you think Pontiac (And most other GM brands) are irrelevant doesn't mean the rest of us share that same media fueled and created pessimism.

More whining for no reason.... Oh, and I'd venture to say that the drop in towing is because of the bling bling 20s and 22s.

It'll have something to say about 4th place (Because it'll bump the Fusion to 5th) They'll cite something to the tune of "The Epsilon chasis just feels dated" and "The V6 isn't as smooth" and "THe interior, while quality, is drab" and "We just don't think SATURN when we see this car and that could turn off buyers"

LOL What a surprise... More proof that the domestics will NEVER be good enough for the press. "Drab interior" ?!?!?!? The Fusion is an EXCELLENT car, yet, of course, finishes last becuse of the badge in it's grille. Get used to this folks... The domestics finish last because that's where the press has predetermined them to finish. It even says in the article that "If you want more pizazz (In the interior) word accents are available" yet they still kill it for the (NICE) interior? Umm... MAYBE because everyone in the press WORSHIPS that company?!?!? Another major complaint was "the relative height of the rear window" GIVE ME A BREAK! Okay, FIRST, if the Fusion is the "most european" then shouldn't IT have been the best handler? SECOND: in any OTHER comparison this would've waranted the Fusion the winner, but I guess since it's a "ferd" then nobody wants that... Right???? Funny.... I've never seen THAT in any BMW review. Yet another POSITIVE in a domestic that the media turns around to be a negative through subjective bullsh*t. You know... I can remember when GM cars were LOADED with electronic 'GEEK' features and no one ever scored them the BETTER for it. Now, all of the sudden, since Japan Inc. signed some deals with their electronics industry that killed ours long ago, all of the sudden we "SCORE" these things. Yet another POSITIVE exploited as a NEGATIVE.... A good price, but because it doesn't feature all the CRAP that some people might not want anyway, it's a negative. The FJ Cruiser doesn't have everything the H3 offers, yet "It's okay because it's SUPPOSED to be that way." and the FJ Cruiser is subsequently scored higher. All through the article they have positives about the car... That are subjectively weighted of course to ensure a last place finish. Then they NAIL the coffin shut with this in the conclusion That's a bit harsh IMO and a bit of BULLSH*T It's trying to be "all things to all people" because that's 1) the only way they're going to get the desperately needed sales and 2) to TRY and get a decent f*ckin' unbiased review for once. Then we get this: AFTER the Toyota Camry was deemed the winner.... WHICH one is "weirder"????? Of course, if it were in a Honda it would be deemed "Conservative and nicely done with quality to boot" Okay, so BESTING the competitors isn't enough now... It has to be "EARTH SHATTERING" before the domestic is fairly evaluated? You can't have your cake and eat it too. I'm willing to bet that this wouldn't have even been an issue or complaint had they not known that they could make the Fusion look bad. Oh, and if this is so important, WHY isn't it factored into the Accord and Camry reviews???? Oh wait, that's right (FOG smacks himself on the head) They're THE ALMIGHTY NEVER BREAK DOWN DUO!!!! But the Ford... Well, I guess you're taking your chances with it, right????? BULLSH*T!!!!! ****The rank and file has been established folks... GET USED TO IT! The press will now continue to *CLAIM* that even the quality glitch ridden koreans are BETTER than Detroit. And they (the press) won't stop until GM and Ford are bankrupt; IF then**** EDIT: You know, now that I think of it... HASN'T that been the MEDIA hallmark of a PERFECT family sedan up until now???? Something that is good in ALL areas?!?!?!? Edmunds even ADMITS that the Fusion is good in all areas, yet apparently, the BAR HAS BEEN MOVED AGAIN... It's kinda hard for the domestics to hit the target when the media is constantly MOVING it right before the silver bullet passes through it. P.S. Why not test the MKZ in this comparo since the Camry is so pricey?

LOL.... Nahh, they'd actually keep it professional and "asskissingness" with Toyota or the check would get "lostinthemailness" They've successfully made the domestic industry the butt of all jokes for years, so that's how people view them. Oh, and uh, apparently C&D is written by 8 year olds now. But, "goodforyouness" Pontiac... The SV6 was a bad idea to begin with.