smk4565

Acura builds 2 FWD crossovers with near segment bottom power. And they have the TLX with currently segment bottom power and the Type S that is coming is still less powerful than CT5-v I think and the Acura is wrong wheel drive with a 57/43 weight balance.

Acura isn’t adding SUV’s either, they have 2 still, most have about 5.

Problem is Acura wants to position themselves as a performance brand but there are 500+ hp competitors in this segment. So they aren’t even close to competition on performance. Acura is giving $12,000 off the RLX right now before they kill it off. This is another brand in contraction.

Nissan is facing financial troubles, and Covid-19 is only going to add to that. Look at Nissan/Infiniti’s line and look how old most of that product is. They don’t have money to keep their product fresh and they rely on rental fleets a bit which aren’t buying cars now. This is a hurting company. They could try Renault vans, they are probably better than the Fiat vans that Ram sells.

Corvette needs a V6 if they want to sell global. The V8 doesn't pass European emissions, and it might pass in China, but it would bet clobbered with displacement taxes. So there is one argument for a V6. What Corvette is really has no relevance to anything Cadillac does. Whether Cadillac wants to build a sports car, a Lamborghini Urus style SUV, a big sedan, a luxury off roader or anything else. Cadillac should do what is best for Cadillac, not what is best for Chevrolet or Corvette or GMC or anything else. I think a big problem of GM in general is one brand compromises another. Can't make a Buick too nice or it will step on the toes of a Cadillac, can't make a sports car faster than the Corvette, can't make anything more expensive than an Escalade, can't put too much power in a Camaro or it will steal Corvette sales. None of that crap should matter, if Ford has a 750 hp Mustang, Dodge has an 800 hp Challenger, and Chevy has a 500 hp Camaro because it can't have more power than the Corvette, then Camaro gets screwed and loses to its competitors. And I know there is a 600-whatever horsepower Camaro but I am just using that as an example. Same with Escalade, it was once one of the most expensive SUVs on market, now there are 10 or so that are higher priced than it. Now if GM decides cars with base prices over $100k is just not a money maker for them that is fine, don't go there. But you still have to make your other products best in segment, and not position them as to no step on the toes of over brands. This brands should be competing with each other to get better. I bet Ford Mustang Mach -E outsells the Mustang once production is ramped up in calendar year 2022 for example, despite Mach-E costing more. Truth of the matter is, they could sell the Corvette for $25,000 and the Toyota RAV4 would outsell it 10 to 1. People want SUVs, the sports car market is small and shrinking.

No, I am not saying change anything with the Corvette other than offer a base V6 maybe at $55k. They can still do ZR1’s and Zora’s. I am saying GM should build a sports car above Corvette just like I said their should be an SUV above Escalade.

I don’t think Corvette should be ultra expensive, I think GM should build something above Corvette. Corvette has to hit a price target, but a Cadillac super car would not. Bugatti prices a car at $3 million and it sells out, Mercedes prices a car at $2.8 million and it sells out. The price doesn’t even matter to the people buying these things.

Duesenberg disappeared partly because the wealthy didn't want to be seen flaunting wealth in the depression. Also FDR raised the top tier tax rate to 94% by 1941 so he basically put a limit on income because no one would make salary over that cap. Today with a 37% top tax rate, and even at that the billionaires aren't paying, you have these super wealthy that was not as widespread decades ago. Also these big corporations bet government bailouts all the time. The billionaires won't be hurt at all by Covid-19, riots, looking, etc, because the system is rigged for them. I'm a grow the economy fro the bottom up kind of guy and would love a modern day FDR tax code, but that isn't what we have. The 3 richest Americans have more money than the poorest 160 million Americans combined. So it isn't the rich that hurt, it is that 160 million people that do.

I know you can shave that 12 second gap from RS Q8 to C8. Take out 350 lbs and add 50 hp and lb-ft and you just got 6 seconds. Now it is a 6 second gap. And you are pretty close, not beating but very close.

That has been rumored, but I see one major problem. Mazda wants to be a "premium" brand for some reason, so if they make an inline 6 Mazda 6, it will probably cost $45k and no one is going to buy it. Because car enthusiasts will just buy a BMW for the same money, and the mass market will see Camry for $25k and buy that. The Mazda 6 despite being a good car already gets clobbered by the Camry and Accord and I think because they don't push themselves as "value" they push themselves are "premium" which means more expensive to buyer's minds.

12 seconds isn't an eternity on a track that takes 7 minutes and 42 seconds to get around. Secondly, the RSQ8 is heavy, smart engineering and some carbon fiber can shed 300 lbs off that thing easily that has to be worth 3-4 seconds, and now you are within less than 10 seconds of a C8. We haven't seen the GLE63 run yet and it has more power than the RSQ8 and so maybe it can crack 7:40, the GLC did 7:49, so I gotta imagine a far more powerful GLE with the 48 volt electric suspension can take 10 seconds off the GLC. These other guys are getting close, and those aren't even purpose built, if you go in with the idea to make a lightweight, sports SUV, I think you can get closer to the C8. Omega is quite weight efficient they could build a 4800 lb SUV on it and that gives them 500 lbs advantage over the RS Q8, use carbon fiber roof and hood to lower center of gravity and cut weight, tune the Blackwing up to a 7500 red line 650 hp, 650 lb ft, add an electric assist on top of that and you are on your way.

Getting rid of a V8 in something like a C-class, and who puts V8s in small sedans outside of Mercedes? I don't see a V8 in an M3 anymore, CT4/ATS never had one, Lexus IS-F is dead, Guilia has a V6, etc. Rumor is Mercedes has a 515 hp 4-cylinder hybrid for the C63, more power than the current V8 and they get to take all that weight off the front axel for handling. SL isn't dying, they have a new one coming next year, I imagine 2022 model with how things are going as you mentioned. They are even killing SLC, S-class coupe, and S-class convertible to clear out space in the portfolio for the SL. And there will be an SL73 at the top of the Mercedes mountain, they are committed to their longest running nameplate. C8 is a game changer in that you can get a mid-engine car for $60k, and even well equipped at $75k, it is a fantastic deal. It is super car performance for half the price. But they always had good performance for half the price, so that hasn't changed. Problem with your last point is when the economy goes south, it isn't the type of people that buy new AMG cars that suffer, it is the other 95% of the population. As millions are unemployed the stock market goes up, Jeff Bezos gets richer and richer while thousands of small businesses fold and every auto maker around the globe lays off workers. The millionaires and billionaires don't suffer, the regular folks do.

Corvette isn't the best performance, the C7 ZR1 was 30 seconds slower around the Nurburgring than the 911 GT2, and the 911 is slower than both the Huracan and Aventador. Yes there is a C8 but there is a new 911 too now. And yet Zora will be here in 4 years but the other guys have new stuff coming too. The Zora won't hold a candle to the AMG One, the C8 is too heavy. The AMG One is 1,000 lbs lighter than a C8. Nothing but the GM beancounters is stopping Corvette engineers from making a $1 million dollar hyper car. If Mary Barra said tomorrow she wants a car faster than the Veyron, we'd see if they can take the Corvette to 270 mph. Mercedes made a car that hit 268 mph on public roads in 1938, a record that stood until 2017 when the Koenigsegg Agera did 277 mph. Maybe Zora can go for 280 mph and set the new standard, that should be the target to have best in the world performance. Cadillac can do a fancy SUV, but you have Aston Martin, Lamborghini, Bentley, Ferrari with SUV's too, so you have to do something specular there, but there is less entrants in that space than there are in sports cars, and SUVs sell way better than sports cars.

First off, a Corvette is not the best of the best performance, there are dozens of faster cars on market. Performance per dollar is fantastic and for years has been. Secondly, obviously a Corvette is a Chevrolet and always should be. I have often said there should be a V6 (probably turbo) Corvette that even comes in at a lower price point to broaden appeal. But there are people that want more than a Corvette, spend more than what a Corvette costs, or won't give Chevrolet the time of day solely on brand image or dealership experience. This is where Cadillac can come in. Now maybe GM ran the numbers and just doesn't see a business case or market demand for a Cadillac supercar and that's fine. When you look at R8 and NSX sales they are pretty much nothing, so I can see Cadillac not going there because it would probably be a money loser. So if not a sports car, what does Cadillac build outside of the Escalade that brings people in? I think super SUV has more profit potential.

A year later but XLR was on market for 5-6 years. In 2009 they were working with a 1997 Corvette chassis. Point is Cadillac is greater than Chevrolet. A Cadillac sports car should be greater than a Chevrolet sports car. C8 starts at $60k, a Cadillac mid-engine car can start at $160k like an Audi R8 or the Acura NSX. So a whole of of performance options open up.

Aston Martin just hired Tobias Moers to be their CEO. Aston Martin also has no money so I don’t know how they’ll afford to come up with a bespoke V6 hybrid of their own. Maybe they will or maybe Moers will just buy engines from AMG because that is what he knows. AMG isn’t getting rid of the V8, the SL will have it and that car has a long production run, probably gets them to 2030 before they kill the V8. AMG already has a 4 and a hybrid 4 is coming. There are lots of ways to get power and they have a lot of sized vehicles.

S-class coupe and convertible are dying after this year to clear room for a new SL that is supposedly a 2+2 set up and engineered entirely by AMG. It will have I-6 and V8 with hybrid power on all. Updated C5, but Chevy had C6. And the Corvette was faster than the XLR. It would be like today Cadillac making a C7 based sports car with 400 hp and charging $85k when a C8 with 500 hp is $60k (to start) and wondering why the Cadillac doesn’t sell.

Cadillac doesn’t do what AMG does, they don’t have performance SUV’s. Also Chevy makes the most powerful and fastest cars at GM. AMG doesn’t build slower less power cars than the Mercedes-Benz side of the house. If the C8 is 495 hp, make a Cadillac mid-engine car with the 550 hp blackwing engine. That is what AMG would do.

XLR was a good looking car and still looks good today. Problem was it was a C5 chassis and the C6 came out a year later, also the XLR had 320 hp to the C6’s 400 hp and the XLR interior was not that good for Mercedes-Jaguar price class they were playing in. If the XLR was on the C6 chassis with more power and more luxury and quality, then they would have been on to something. If Cadillac gave it another go with a C8 platform and more luxury and performance than the C8, then there is a reason to buy the car, I don’t know how much market demand there is though. As I said Audi makes an SUV that is 12 seconds off the C8 on a 7:30 time, so they are close. All I said was Cadillac had to get close to C8 track performance with an SUV. Audi is already there and I suspect the Urus is faster than the SQ8, in fact I know it is.

That design rendering looks bad, but I think Cadillac should have a sports car. They could use the C8 chassis, with a Cadillac body that doesn't look as close as a Tahoe to Escalade transformation. Make it a Cadillac interior and use the Blackwing V8. The problem with some Cadillacs like XT5 or XT6 is not only are they Chevy chassis, they are Chevy engine, transmission, steering, suspension, etc. Why pay Cadillac money for that? Especially when the competitors have rear drive and more power. With the C8 at least they would have a good performance per dollar starting point, and Cadillac can offer 550 hp standard vs the 495 for the Corvette and Cadillac can blow away the C8's interior, and then you have a compelling case for the Cadillac price ta of the car. I think Cadillac could do a performance SUV also, take the Omega platform, Blackwing V8, carbon fiber hood to cut weight, etc. The Audi SQ8 has a 7:42 Nurburgring time, vs 7:30 for a C8, that isn't that far off, I think it possible for Cadillac to make an SUV that can match the C8 on a race track or at least get really close. With SUV popularity, I might go that route over a Cadillac mid-engine sports car, unless you have the money to do both, which I doubt GM has given the hit they will take this year in sales.

CT4’s problem is that the starting price is only $3-4K less than the CT5. With the 84 month financing GM is doing there isn’t going to be much difference in payment between the two.

Mercedes E450 sedan 4matic starts at $61,550, the G80 3.5 AWD starts at. $62,250. Mercedes has a longer options list that can push the price higher but that is pretty close pricing. That G80 better be on point if they want E450 money for it.

OCN is correct on that prior post and CT4 and CT5 still ride on Alpha. I think Cadillac knew they had to cut price to survive. They made the right move pricing CT5 where they did. CTS was dying in sales, a $10k price cut was needed or there was no point in continuing. 5-series size for 3-series money is the only strategy that worked for Cadillac in the past 25 years.

@oldshurst442 That was a long post so I didn’t quote it, but I see a theme Cadillac Catera (Opel Omega), STS, DTS, CTS, XLR, ATS are all gone or failed. Throw SRX that was rear drive and now a front drive XT5. XTS too, 8 dead name plates in 20 years. Also CT5 is what gen 1 CTS was, 5-series size for 3-series money. Gen 1 CTS was the best selling (best looking too) so that is a correct strategy.

All true in this post. And to answer the question, the E-class has 4 body styles (5 if you count CLS) and G80 has 1. E-class has 4 engines in the US, all of which will be electrified for 2021 and the G80 has 2 engines with no electrification. The E-class has up to 603 hp, the G80 has up to 375. Also pretty much anything offered on the G80 was on the E-class 3 years ago. The G80 has to share a chassis with the GV80, E-class and GLE use different architectures so to optimize one for cars and the other for SUV. And lastly Mercedes has a loyal buyer pool, Genesis has to conquest from another brand. G80 has the deck stacked against it. And we have seen everyone else make runs at the E-class and 5-series in the past, Lexus even failed and finally quit the segment. I don’t see how Genesis wins where Lexus failed.