smk4565

I think VWs and Audis are built solid, but a lot of the interior parts are hard or stiff, although that comes from the German utilitarian theme. I'm not a fan of their interior designs, but they use better materials and fit them together tighter than the domestics. I've always thought it was mechanical problems that plagued Audis, I knew a couple people that had them and were horrid on maintenance once they got to be about 5 years old, and both got rid of the car and went to another brand. The Chrysler 300 is close enough in price that both it and the Charger will get cross shopped to the G8. A 300 with the prestigious "Great American Package" is just $26,860. They really do have too trim levels with poor names for that car, such as the Herritage edition, Signiature Series Value Package and Walter P. Chrysler Executive Series. Sounds like old Town Car names.

The Silverado is rear drive and will still be around then. Otherwise, BMW and Mercedes will have rear wheel drive.

They do need to solve the weight problem, it hurts acceleration, breaking, handling and gas mileage. It ranges from the Solstice and Cobalt, to the Vue to the Enclave. The Malibu V6 mileage is so-so, it carries over into the bigger and heavier G8. Toyota's and Honda's V6 engines are pretty efficient, if the engine has 300-400 pounds less to pull, it is going to get better mileage. It would be nice to see a smaller V6 with DI that can make 250 hp but get better mileage than the 3.6.

I agree that rear drive is the way to go, but Pontiac's brand image is just about as low as Hyundai's. The 09 Maxima interior is much nicer, although that's a front driver. I'll have to compare the 300C and G8 at the auto show. The one thing Pontiac has going for them is there are very few full size rear drive sedans for $30,000.

I agree about the CTS interior, parts are good, and parts are discount plastic. The gray plastic on the map pockets on the doors is flimsy, the gray plastic around the center console is cheap, gray plastic surrounds the speedo and tach that sick out. The interior was designed to fit a $33k car so they could have a low base, but people that like a loaded up model (like myself) pay $48,000 for a $33,000 interior. I have not sat in the G8 yet, I saw the concept car at the auto show last year, I'll sit in it when I go in April. It better be much better in person, because in photos and from looking through the window in person, it appears to be on par with the Mazda 3, Malibu and not even as good as the Accord and those cars are much cheaper. I think the Dodge Charger interior is really bad, although the Avenger/Sebring are even worse. I am very interested in sitting in the Hyundai Genesis. The G8 has to compete with that car, and the Genesis has more luxury gear, more horsepower, and a 500+ watt, 17 speaker stereo from the Rolls-Royce Phantom. (even the CTS is left with 10 speakers as its top end system) Although I wouldn't buy a Pontiac or a Hyundai, I see either brand as a step down from the Aurora.

GM needs more rear drive stuff, they have tons of front wheel drive cars already. CAFE isn't an excuse, they can get the same mileage from rear drive, and they can make rear drive cars with light hybrids or diesels if they need to. Lassa is right about making cars under 195 inches long. Rear drive cars don't need to be 210 inches long and weigh 4300 pounds like a Town car. Size is what hurts mileage, not the drive wheels. Lassa is also right about Mercury being near death and Ford and Lincoln being too poor to come up with anything. I predict Mercury dies off, and Lincoln continues with it's dressed up Fords and adds the Mariner. I don't like Lassa's Cadillac plan. If the DTS/STS replacement is 203+ inches long and $40,000-$50,000, that's a geezer-mobile. If the 3-series is the #1 seller in the segment, (both US and worldwide) and the C-class, A4 are a couple inches bigger, why would the Alpha Cadillac be smaller than a 3-series. It should be 180-182 inches long. I don't like his engine choices either, a high revving 4-banger for the Alpha and a Chevy small block V8 for the big car. I'd be fine with an updated version of the DI turbo 4 from the Solstice GXP as the base BTS engine, but they need a V6 also.

It isn't nice, it is monotone dark gray plastic with 90s Stratus style A/C vents and panel gaps on the dashboard to the left and right of the steering wheel. The Malibu interior is better and costs $10,000 less. The G8 interior is a half step up from a Mazda 3.

Car and Driver online, with the manual transmission. The 335i has been clocked as low as 4.9 seconds, the 135i weighs less. BMW claims are usually a little slower than what the car can really do. Just like the 300 hp claim is probably low when the dyno test showed 270-275 on the 335i.

The 6.2 liter in the Escalade is 403 hp, perhaps the Vette has better air intake, and exhaust that gives it an advantage. It also depends on how effectively they can put the power on the ground, maybe the GXP accelerates better with 402 hp than with 430 or more because of wheel hop or some other issue. Or maybe GM is just using the old "nothing can have as much power as a Corvette" rule they like to use. They are over the magic 400 number, so that should be enough to get G8 buyers to pay extra for the GXP, unless the GXP is significantly more than the GT and people don't think the price is worth the extra 40 hp. My complaint is that it seems Pontiac recycled all the old plastic body cladding into a gray, rubbermaid interior. The G8 interior is almost as bad as the Charger's. The BMW 135i does 0-60 in 4.7 seconds with 300 hp. Horsepower number isn't everything, depends on how you use it. And I'm aware the 135i is 2 door and more like a Shelby Mustang or Camaro SS competitor if you were going to compare it to an American car.

Jeremy Clarkson drove the 414 hp Vauxhall VXR version of this car, and thought it was fun to drive because of the massive power and ability to do power slides. Although he thought the exterior was kind of boring and the interior was as well, and too much cheap gray to it. And it wasn't as good as a 5-series. If Pontaic/Holden/Vauxhall say Zeta is supposed to compete with the 5-series, and is just as good at performance/handling. Then aren't they saying the the G8/VXR/Commodore are better than the CTS? Plus the G8 is 196+ inches long, it is very close in overall and wheelbase length to the STS or just 1-2 inches shorter than a 7-series or Lexus LS. Which is on the big side for a car that is aimed at performance.

Rednecks-R-Us

Croc's plan has almost double the number of models GM has now. GM is on the verge of bankruptcy and has long product life cycles as it is. Double the number of models will lead to half the advertising per vehicle they do now (that most of us complain is not enough) and product cycles of 10-12 years. Saab for example has lost money for 17 of the last 18 years, if not all 18. Why on earth would they want to spend money on more Saabs, so they can lose more money. They sold 30,000 Saabs last year, Toyota's #2 seller does that in a month. A better plan is to keep Chevy mostly the same, but make the Impala $26-34k above the Malibu, preferably on Zeta, and just make all the remaining cars better. A hybrid Colbat for example. Kill the other 6 brands besides Cadillac, align the Cadillac sedans in size, price with BMW, redo the XLR, and SRX. Make them the standard of the world again. Then to fill the gap, bring back Oldsmobile. They can get a Delta II car nicer than the Cobalt, (Jetta competition, but softer ride) an Alpha car that is a little bigger but more sporting in nature, the Sky and Vue (but better Oldsmo-riffic versions) and the Aurora can return on Zeta (195 inch long max) for $34-42,000, and include hybrid and awd versions, and a center console angled toward the driver. That gives them 3 kick ass brands without overlap and no rebadged, long in the tooth products like the Grand Prix or G5. And to throw a wildcard into the mix, they could buy whatever is left of Duesenberg and the naming rights and trademarks, and do a nice base model with a twin-turbo, flex fuel, 600 hp V12 with cylinder deactivation, 2-mode hybrid and 8-speed automatic. Performance and mileage would be very good since the car would be made of aluminum and titanium. Rolls and Bentley would be done.

Maybe Saturn should try to sell a car to someone that doesn't currently own a Saturn. Since Saturn has about 2% market share, making products only their customers will like eliminates 98% of car buyers. If Pontiac died, I'd give Saturn an Alpha sedan or maybe it could to Buick and be a soft rider. Or if Saturn dies the Astra could become a Pontiac. I just think between Chevy and 1 or 2 of (Pontiac, Buick, Saturn) they can cover the market with more desirable cars that will sell without big rebates. Personally it doesn't matter to me what they do with Saturn, Buick, or Pontiac because I wouldn't buy any of them anyway.

Cadillac could move upscale, Lexus didn't even exist 20 years ago, now they are #1 in the USA. Not all of their stuff is really upscale, but some is. If they can do it from scratch, Cadillac should be able to pull it off. Cadillac keeps saying they want to compete with BMW and Mercedes (though the products to do so aren't here), if that is true, they should care less about low end Lexus business. Rear wheel drive cars have better ride quality than front wheel drive ones, if the goal is plush comfort, rear drive is still the way to go. If Cadillac sells anything similar to a current Buick or at under $30,000 they have given up and become Lincoln. Cadillac shouldn't be a Chevrolet trim level, like how Lincoln has become a Ford trim level.

Cadillac should never get an ES350 style sedan or any other front wheel drive based product. Every model on the lot should be longitudinal engine mount. The focus should be performance luxury and technology. They should also start the BTS at $34,995 and move everything else up in price. That way Chevy or Buick can sell the $28-35,000 range and there isn't overlap. They can move upscale, they just need the right products, and the resources to do it.

Europe differentiates fairly well with small cars. If gas goes to $4-5 per gallon, people will want small cars, but some will want luxury, some will want performance, so they could do a soft riding Buick that is as small as a Cobalt, a Cadillac like the 3-series, etc. They can differentiate and cover various segments with 4-5 brands. Toyota isn't invincible, but they are in a very good position. They do well in China (the top Toyota outsells the Park Ave), Lexus is growing quickly in Europe. They sold 9.3 million cars last year to GM's 9.35 million, and they sell fewer in the US than GM does, so globally Toyota is doing better actually. More importantly, the last few years while GM and Ford have been losing money, Toyota made $13 billion in profit in 2006 and $15 billion last year.

Toyota has less than 5,000 dealerships in the US, vs about 14,600 for GM. GM isn't selling 3 times as many cars, they don't need 3 times as many dealers. If there were 8-10,000 GM dealers that would be plenty. The other issue GM has to face is rising gas prices, and their product portfolio doesn't address that need right now. They need smaller cars for one, and nicer small cars like Europe has. They should have a CTS or Enclave like interior in a car the size of a Cobalt. 1.8 liter DI turbo 4 cylinders and turbo diesels will be needed also. The Mini cooper has a 1.6 turbo and makes 162 hp, an engine like that can replace the 2.2-2.4 liter ecotecs, matching it to a 6-speed and BAS hybrid can really boost mileage.

If they kill Pontiac, then Saturn would get the Alpha car, Jetta like interior and build quality but rear drive would set them apart from the rest. Like a BMW 128i minus some luxury and prestige. If Pontiac goes, you also use the SS Chevrolets to get performance types, and keep Buick for the slushy-floaty $27-37,000 sedans. Basically if GM picked one of the three (Buick, Pontiac or Saturn) and killed it, the remaining 2 and Chevy could fill all the gaps. Toyota has the Corolla which has sold 32 million units since 1966. 32 million sales in 41 years is about 750,000 a year, that isn't a bad legacy. GM can only bring so many products to market every year. 2008 was Enclave, CTS, Malibu, and G8 (I think Astra is a 2009) and all 4 of those vehicles was on a platform used in 2007 with existing engines. If they can only do 5 products per year, every brand can't get a new vehicle, and models will go for 7 years without update (9-5, H2, GMT360s). The Camaro could be on sale now, but they stopped work on Zeta in favor of GMT900s. With 8 brands they will always move slowly, because they have to spread money and resources thin.

Yes, they do have a bad strategy. I've said for years if Pontiac is supposed to be a sporty Chevy, why does it have the same engine and usually cost less? I see Pontiac as fleet sale central, regardless of what their marketing says. The Lexus LS460 is $70-110,000, if GM is going to compete with it, the car should cost $70-110,000. Cadillac doesn't even have a sedan that bases at $45,000 or higher. An Epsilon LaCrosse could work if done well, but Buick's image is badly hurt, and it would be priced right inline with the Genesis. There is a place in the market for soft, luxurious mid-size sedans, but can Buick win buyers from Toyota, Lexus, and Acura? The reason it is hard for GM to do is there is no money to do it. The company doesn't make profit, so it is hard to crank out new products. Also once Brand A gets a new car, Brands, B, C and D start saying me too, me too, or dealers whine, so GM caves and rebages a car for a quick fix.

TheGriffon is 100% correct about GM's brand strategy. Pontiac is really the lowest priced brand, with Saturn close to it. The LaCrosse and Impala are priced about the same. You can spend more on a Malibu than on a Lucerne, all those cars overlap. The 9-3 is actually the most expensive Epsilon, but it is still under $30k, and costs similar to a loaded Malibu or Aura. The Lambdas may in fact be very good (although not as good as the CX-9) but they aren't as spacious or fuel efficient as a minivan (thus won't replace minivans), their main competitor is full size SUVs, which is GM's strong suit. GM created competition for themselves, rather than making a midsize crossover to replace the aging GMT360s. It does seem like there is no clear strategy other than to make large SUVs because they know how to make profit on that. Enzl said "I can't see a scenario where market share rises." I can. Discontinue the G6, Aura and 9-3, and put all the research, development, production capacity and advertising behind the Malibu. They'll have a car better than the Accord and will sell 400,000 a year with ease, if they are smart and make it a global car, they can sell it elsewhere also. Same strategy works for the Cobalt, forget the G5, Astra, 9-5, 9-7, etc. Make a global Cobalt on Delta II with a 6-speed auto standard, panel fits as good as the CTS, BAS hybrid option, and make it get over 40 mpg average, not highway. They could sell it worldwide (it could get a Holden or Opel badge) and move 500,000 or more, maybe even 750,000. If BMW can sell 500,000 3-series, GM should be able to sell 750,000 Cobalts and 600,000 Malibus/Insignias.

I never said overnight, Saab and Hummer would be easy to phase out of 2-3 years, most of their stuff has been on the market a while already, they can finish out life cycles like they did with Olds. Then they could phase out another brand in 2010-2012. In the process of phasing out Buick for example, they could give Chevy a more luxurious full size sedan (Avalon price range) that would replace the Lucerne in the marketplace. Or if Pontiac is the one to go, make the Impala a little more sporting to replace the G8. Over five years or so they could focus products more and have better products that will sell in higher volume without the incentives.

GM also had about 38% market share in 1990. So that is a 15% slide since then, 5% slide over the past 10 years, they could easily be around 18% in 2017, possibly less if the truck market keeps sliding. Then how do they keep 8 brands going at 18% share or less. The 8 brand strategy has failed for the past 18 years, yet they still want to use it. If they try to keep all 8 running, they will always have dated or uncompetitive products in their portfolio, a dealer network that is too large, dealers going out of business or not investing any money into their buildings because they only have 3 models to sell. If GM continues doing business the way they did in the past, sales will continue sliding. The way to grow is to cut the fat and pump money into the core products. Chevy and Cadillac obviously stay, Hummer and Saab go. The decision then is to cut Saturn and have Pontiac sell a couple small cars from Opel and the Solstice and G8, or cut Pontiac and let Saturn be the Mazda-VW-Honda competitor. A zeta Impala would make the G8 irrelevant anyway, although if they make that Impala nice it can replace the Buick sedans. It would be best if Chevy and Cadillac were individual channels, then either Saturn or B-P-G was the 3rd sales channel. Saturn would be easier to close down.

I do use Baierl in Wexford and the dealership is small and needs a facelift. That building isn't nearly as nice as the Rahal Mercedes/BMW/Jaguar/Land Rover dealerships around Pittsburgh. The problem in Wexford is Baierl has Cadillac, Chevy, Buick in 3 separate stores. Wright has Saab sales in one store, Hummer sales in one store, neighboring GMC/Pontiac Sales and the service for all 4 is done at the GMC/Pontiac dealer. Not exactly pushing the upscale image of Saab when your car is fixed at the Pontiac dealer, even though Saab had it's own service adviser. My mom was a Saab customer there, the service was horrid, I've heard others say that Wright is bad as well, so she is no longer a Saab owner. Saturn of Wexford is owned by another group, but Baierl and Wright have GM split, so that B-P-G and Saab-Cadillac sales channel won't happen, instead there are 6 sales channels and 4 service channels, plus Saturn off on it's own.

I get my car serviced at a Cadillac dealership (they used to have Olds and are one of few places with Aurora parts). The dealership is Cadillac only now, and they own a Buick/Subaru lot 1-2 miles down the road. The service manager told me they wanted to do Buick-Cadillac at the same lot, and GM wouldn't allow them because Buick would hurt Cadillac's image. Cadillac has to stand alone and move upscale, otherwise they are Lincoln-Mercury. The local Lexus dealership has a cappauccino bar and gives back and neck messages while your car gets fixed.

I agree with that, GM moves too slowly, and often seems late to the game, such as how Toyota got the jump on hybrids. The zeta cars were put on hold because GM had to divert resources (people and money) to the GMT900s to get them on the market. I too would like to see W-bodies dead, Alpha and Zeta on sale, but where does the money come from? GM has $6.6 billion a year to spread across the 8 domestic brands, Holden, Opel/Vauxhall and Daewoo/Chevy, etc. That money gets spread thin so they have to keep platforms around longer, and keep products on the road longer without an update. GM has to streamline globally and get more global cars to start making profit and get stronger. GM can't do everything like they once did, the money isn't there. I'd trade the Buick brand for a Zeta Impala that is better than the 300C, G8, Avalon, Lucerne, Genesis, etc. I'd give up Hummer and Saab for an alpha Cadillac that is as good as the 3-series. It is better to have a best in class Malibu, Impala, BTS and CTS than to have 2 W-body cars, 2 G-body cars, 3 dated Saab products, a 12 mpg hummer with declining sales that is getting discontinued in 2011 anyway because CAFE rules change.