smk4565

If Lincoln resale value was good, quality and interiors are so good and the products are “world class” as Lincoln claims, then why aren’t they selling? And they aren’t selling in the USA let alone getting beat 15-1 by any German brand in China and Lincoln not being a factor in Europe.

If we are going to play the compare resale value game, here is the Navigator: And the Lexus LX: And the G-wagen: A 2016 Navigator is worth $30k less than a 2016 Lexus, and they cost about the same new. The Lincoln seems to do okay in the first few years then really drops off in value, which I think goes to a lot of people not wanting an older Ford/Lincoln product, vs being very willing to pay for an older Toyota product because people know a Toyota/Lexus will last a long time. And a 4 year old G-wagen is pretty close to what they cost new, and not sure why '20 and '21 G-wagen's are over $200k, but hot demand I guess.

2018 Flex started at $31,195 per Kelly Blue Book. https://www.kbb.com/ford/flex/2018/ And what I would assume be the volume model SEL $33,905. And in 2019 prices rose slightly, per KBB again: So the price today of a Flex is not more than what someone paid for one in 2018 or 2019.

I don't care about year over year, in spring 2020 the new and used car market were both dead. I care about the price of a used car today vs what that car cost new 2-3 years ago. The 2018 Escape has an average price of $21,694, but a 2021 Escape SE is $30k, it still depreciated $9k in 3 years. According to car gurus the 2018 4Runner is selling for $41,830, a brand new 2021 4Runner SR5 Premium with a moonroof has an MSRP of $41,580. Zero depreciation over 3 years, that is what is crazy. And my point is the Lincoln brand does not have this sort of desirability, in that their new vehicles have low sales numbers, and their used ones have poor resale value, because they aren't sought after on the used market either. I'd say only Infiniti has a worse image than Lincoln as far as luxury brands go, and Alfa Romeo is so small in volume, hard to gauge there, overall their image isn't good, but they have some hardcore followers.

But I am not talking something bought a year ago at the bottom and selling now in a hot market. I am talking about a car sold in 2018 that had 53k miles put on it, selling for over the 2021 MSRP. Used car market is hot, but 3 year old Lincolns and Fords aren't getting original MSRP like Toyotas can. If people can't find a new car, but want the next best thing, it seems that the market is looking at Toyota.

I think it has AWD now, might not have back then. The base Continental was front drive with a 305 hp V6, just like the ES350, and Toyota engines are more reliable and Toyota/Lexus have far better resale value. The Continental’s difference was having the turbo V6 and AWD and that was an advantage over the ES, but not over any of the Germans. And as an example of how crazy good Toyota resale is, I wrote and estimate and ran a total loss value on a 2018 4Runner SR5 with 53k miles, and it was $43,800 (average of NADA and market value). A 2021 4Runner with the same trim and same options has a sticker price of $43,379. And I have twice this month had 2019 RAV4 hybrids come in for more than original msrp. There is no Lincoln on earth that after 3 years and 53k miles went up in value, Lincoln resale value is awful.

So if you are challenging benchmarks like the E-class, 5-series and A6 (at least in price segment), then why do you come with a 9/10 baked product? And if they were going for full size like an A8 or Lexus LS, they were in fantasy land, but even a Lexus ES350 is/was a better product then the Continental, and the Lexus was cheaper. If they want this Zypher to sell, they need an 11/10 product something nice than a Genesis G80, but EV with more performance and the same price as a G80. Or come up with a hook like level 4 self driving standard, something that is way cutting edge that will attract people that otherwise wouldn't consider it.

9 day average on dealer lots. It was built on a Fusion platform...

Lincoln sales volume in China: https://carsalesbase.com/china-lincoln/ And Audi sales in China: https://carsalesbase.com/china-audi/ That is Audi outselling Lincoln by over 16 to 1 in China last year, and Audi is on pace for 750,000 sales this year. "World Class" doesn't get outsold 16 to 1 in the largest car market in the world and not even participate in the EU.

They have to have a franchise agreement to sell vans, just as there were franchise agreements for Sprinter, Smart and Maybach. https://static1.squarespace.com/static/50749503e4b0fa0ffd4b65f5/t/56142bd2e4b0e26258e39c6c/1444162514216/BrandStandards_08.20.15.pdf Notice there are Passenger Car AND Light Truck Franchise AgreementS. Obviously 289 dealers got both franchises, some did not. Just like some Mercedes dealers has Smart franchises while others did not. In fact in Pittsburgh Bobby Rahal owns 2 Mercedes dealers, only 1 of them had the Smart brand.

I don't care about brand ATP, because brands with small lines or crappy selling entry level cars have high ATP. Maserati and Alfa Romeo have the 2 best ATP's at FCA, maybe FCA should kill Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep and focus on their high ATP brands are. But oh wait, everyone hear says Maserati and Alfa Romeo lose money. EQS is a $100k+ car, Mercedes has had success selling cars above $100k, they have the largest luxury car owner base in the world. They aren't going into any new price category or going above what their current base buys. EQS will do well in China and Europe, it should do okay here, I think since gas is cheap the S-class will sell much better. As far as Lincoln goes, every sedan they made in the past 10 years has bombed, and all of them started under $50k. People aren't going to pay $70-80k or more on a Lincoln sedan. And here are Lincoln sales in China, under 40k units last year, bank to bank 15% declines, when BMW, Mercedes and Audi did 610k, 640k, and 655k respectively (and all 3 are on pace to top 700k units this year). The other luxury brands have a global base to sell to, Lincoln does not, mostly just American and they don't do so well in America either.

Doesn't bother me if 100% of Mercedes dealers sell vans. If the dealership wants to get the license to sell both that is their choice.

289 Mercedes Vans dealers in North America, and 383 Car dealers in North America. So they don't all sell vans. Maybe Vans requires something special that those other 100 dealers choose not to invest in. Also who cares if they sell commercial cans where they sell cars, they sell Corvettes next to $15k Sparks and Express work vans, no one says they aren't going to buy a Corvette because the dealer sells a work van.

This is true, but look at the early 2000s Continental, the LS, MKZ, MKS, reborn Continental, all of those cars were bad. Who is going to give them a chance after 20 years of bad cars, and Genesis wasn't even around for most of that, and the new G80 is a strong competitor. The dealer I go to for service does not sell vans. https://www.bobbyrahalmotorcar.com

What Lincoln is class leading or even top 3? Aren't they like the 8th best selling luxury brand in the USA? And probably not even top 10 globally.

It could be in the same dealer, the same way Chevrolet and Cadillac can be in the same dealership, but they are separate brands/dealer contracts. Not all Mercedes dealers can sell vans, there are 3 in Pittsburgh, only 1 has vans. Because Mercedes sells more $100k+ cars than anyone else in the world. Their customer base shops in that price bracket, and they have a big customer base.

The Edge and Nautilus are both supposed to die after the 2022 model year I think, 2023 at the latest. And there won't be a replacement for either, I guess Ford figures Escape, Bronco Sport, Maverick, Explorer, Mach-E has them pretty much covered and they don't need the Edge, thus Lincoln loses their version. I assume Lincoln gets some version of the Mach-E, and later a larger electric SUV, like Aviator size. While I like sedans (and hate this make everything a crossover trend), the Zypher won't sell, it will be Continental 2.0.

This speaks VOLUMES about MB FAILED ability to get EVs to the US market. Now consider that still more Mercedes-Benz electric vehicles are in the pipeline with not-yet-announced timing. Würth said: So no real luxury EVs, just compact mid cost BEVs sometime in the future. which makes the other news reports saying 3 BEVs by 2025 questionable as they are not committing to any release schedule for the US. This is even more proven when they say late debute of the EQS in 2021 at dealerships. Sign up for details in the future. This pretty much says they are not committing to anything in the near future and one would have to question the near years. 2022 EQS Sedan | Future Vehicles | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com) Even their detailed EQ web page for the US market does not commit to any EVs in the near term. Mercedes-EQ | Mercedes-Benz USA (mbusa.com) Even from this 2020 story, there are no updates, nothing to give any credible statement to when MB might actually start building let alone selling EVs in the US. Mercedes-Benz launches $1.65bn plan to expand electric vehicle battery production (thedriven.io) This news story even lends credibility to the fact that MB will not have BEVs till maybe 2023 in the US as 2022 is when they move into their new Battery and BEV parts buildings in Alabama. New $54M parts facility will boost Mercedes EV production in Alabama (madeinalabama.com) As such, that would imply time to setup production, run tests and get things worked out with the local work force before they can start building and shipping BEVs. At best, I would expect 3 BEVs by 2025. The EQS is 207 inches long, the S-class is 208, not sure that that guy is talking about. There is 3 final product and 4 that are late in development that will be ready in 2022. I hope Lincoln goes from their 4 vehicle lineup, to adding 7 EV's in the next 2 years to keep up. And by the 2030s all the luxury brands will be mostly EV if not all EV, and the same brand that sold the most gasoline cars will sell the most EV's.

Because Gottlieb Daimler 125 ago had the motto "the best or nothing," and they honor that to this day. The G-wagon was the fastest selling vehicle in the USA in May, and at an average ATP of $174,700. I don't see many Toyota's selling for $174k, or Lexus for that matter. I don't see Lincoln selling Navigators at $174k, why not? They want to be "world class" then step up to the plate. The vans aren't luxury, they are commercial vehicles, Mercedes markets them that way as well. They aren't even sold though the same dealership network as their cars, nor are they even part of the same business unit as their cars.

Mercedes has EQA, EQB, EQC electric SUV's either on sale now or will be in 2022 in Europe and China, which are all converts of the gas models. EQS, EQE, EQE SUV, EQS SUV (dedicated EV platform) will be on sale by end of 2022. So that's 7 right there. I don't know that they need more than 7 EV's when EV is still a small segment of the market, at least in the USA, maybe will be bigger in Europe or China. And that is just in the next 18 months or so, by 2025 they'll have more than that.

If you have to say "we build world class product" you are admitting you don't and trying to convince people otherwise. The Corsair is a bottom feeder in it's segment just as the Escape is in its segment, the Nautilus is junk, the Aviator is mid-pack only because the Infiniti, Cadillac and Acura offerings in that segment are worse, and the Navigator lags behind the Germans and Escalade, and I suspect Lexus will get a version of the 2022 Land Cruiser which will be better too. The same people that think Lincoln is world class, thought the Continental was going to be a serious competitor to the luxury segment, and 4 years later the car is dead because it didn't sell, even though it cost 50% of a German car of the same size. None of their portfolio is competitive with the 4 German brands, Land Rover, Genesis, or Lexus. I would place Aviator over the MDX or XT6, but otherwise I'd put Cadillac or Acura offerings over Lincoln.

They care in China where the air quality is terrible. And maybe Los Angeles or NYC where congestion is bad, outside of that probably not.

To quote the Lincoln president, "Our clients deserve the very best from Lincoln. Our world-class vehicles, effortless services and advanced connected technology will allow us to create an always-on relationship with them and help transform the Lincoln brand for the future." Laughable that they think Lincoln builds "world class vehicles" It makes sense though to run Lincoln all EV, 9 years is still fairly far away and they are a low volume brand and not really competitive now, so might as well go a different direction. Plus their model line is small, won't be hard to build 3 electric SUVs, and maybe 1 sedan but Ford seems not interested in sedans. It isn't like they have to make a model line as diverse as Ford's all EV which would take much longer. Plus I think by 2030, EV will be standard expectation in the luxury segment.

23.5 inches by 16.2 inches and 1.6 inches thick, 10 liter volume https://insideevs.com/news/501198/mercedes-benz-eqs-world-premiere/

Mercedes says over 99.65% of particles, I'll take their word for it. And that matches Tesla's 99.7%, and we know Tesla is more likely to round up numbers than Mercedes is.