smk4565

I agree they are more flexible, they are in much better shape than they were, and can actually compete now. I just don't like when people use bankruptcy as an excuse. It is like the Pirates complaining that they don't have as much money as the Yankees. They are all in the same league, so you just have to deal with it. Yes, Mercedes has an unfair advantage globally, but that is how it is, so Cadillac just has to overcome that somehow.

For luxury cars, I find the CTS average at handling (but I drove an FE2 AWD, which could be the problem), I doubt the XTS handles better than a CTS, so I have zero interest in a car like that. Silent is nice when cruising around, but performance/luxury should be able to sound like a race car when you want it to. That is the one good thing about a Maserati, when you wind it up the noise it makes is insane.

There are two problems with Cadillac's situation. Yes, GM went bankrupt, but their competitors (who are much better managed) did not. Mercedes isn't going to sit still, and consumers aren't going to have sympathy for Cadillac, they will buy what they feel is the best product to suit their needs. You can't cry about bankruptcy, because that was a self inflicted wound, and they just have to deal with it. The second problem is Cadillac is constantly chasing, by the time the ATS comes out, there will be a new 3-series and C-class right after, and they'll push the bar even higher. Every time Cadillac does something to catch up, the market moves again and then they have to chase and play the wait til 2013 card. In 2013, it will be, just wait til 2015, when the new CTS comes, and the story never ends.

But a V6 doesn't sound like a V8, and the smoothness isn't there. The BMW inline-six has the intangible "it" factor and I'd take it that engine over a lot of V8s, but the ford and GM V6s just can't match a V8 in sound or intangibles. And the XTS is a barge with wheels, it can have 500 lb-ft, but it is still a barge with wheels designed for seniors in Florida where roads are straight and flat.

The 7-series is a legit contender, the A8 is underpowered, weak, and bland. My personal favorite is the XJ, I like how it looks, I like that is light weight, and it is an alternative to the Germans. But the S-class is still the gold standard and most prestigious, and best selling of the group.

Arguably??? It is the best of the breed. S-class sold 6,000 units last month world wide, I don't think any Cadillac model achieved that. In 2007, they sold 91,000 S-class sedans worldwide, that is a bigger number than what the CTS sold. It is a hard car to go after, because most flagships are niche volume cars, the S-class has volume, so they can pour money into it every 6 years.

Hold up there, no car can out corner the Chosen One Sonata.

The problem or challenge with luxury cars though, is image matters a lot. Flagships and supercars build image. That is why Audi has the R8, Mercedes has the Gullwing or McLaren SLR, and the V12 7-series and S-class are important. They make the brand aspirational, and lift the image of it. Infiniti has with the G37 and M37/56 what Cadillac seems to be aiming for with the ATS and CTS. Infiniti also has no flagship or supercar, and look at how their brand image lags seriously behind the Germans. The G37 and M56 are very competitive cars, but the 3-series and E-class are the sales champs, because brand image and badge do matter. So I think Cadillac making the ATS and CTS with nothing above them isn't enough to really go after the Germans, that is a way to go after Infiniti. The problem is, Cadillac can't afford to spend $1 billion on making a mid-engine V12 supercar so they can sell 800 of them a year. They can't afford $2 billion for an S-class competitor that will sell 5,000 units a year. It is hard to get image without cars like that, but at the same time it makes zero financial sense for Cadillac to build a car like that.

Well he wanted a large, rear drive V8 car that is quiet, the Genesis fits that bill. Most people can't afford a V8 German car or Jaguar, and the Charger/300C (which are poorly made) are the only American options left, the Genesis is a nice alternative. I've driven the Genesis and CTS, the feature list is similar, the Genesis has a better stereo and is roomier and more quiet. And 429 hp and 18/26 mpg vs 304 hp and 18/27 mpg, is a mismatch. The Genesis just gives you a lot for the money, it isn't as good as a German sedan, but the number of V8 rear drivers that are affordable are diminishing fast.

Genesis gets a 429 hp V8 and 8-speed next year, and it is rated at 18/26 mpg. And that car is more quiet than any Cadillac or Buick.

I agree with Sal, that Lexus builds a better Cadillac than Cadillac, and Cadillac's lineup is looking more like Lexus, minus the LS460 and supercar. It seems that GM wants to make Chevy/Cadillac look like Toyota/Lexus. But what worked for Toyota in the 90s and 2000s, may not work for GM in the 2010s.

I agree with you on all that. And Mercedes could probably sell an S-class with no engine at all and still get $80,000 for it.

The question is, does Cadillac keep moving down market, and aim for Lincoln and Acura? Or do they go all in, spend billions upon billions and go after the Germans? Because they can't half-ass it if they go up-market, they have to go all in.

Not EPA rated, and I don't believe what people claim to get in a perfect scenario on a flat highway. Personally, I average 17 mpg in my Aurora, so gas mileage is of no concern to me. But I know many shoppers are fools, and rank gas mileage and safety at the top of their list. I think 240 hp is fine for a base ATS, an A4 and 328i has less than that. If the ATS is 240 hp and 22/32 mpg, I think that would be quite appealing to a lot of consumers that don't care about speed, but want a solid handling car with good mileage. I wouldn't buy that model, I think 240 hp is weak, so I'd want at least 300 hp.

I wonder how sustainable GM's profit is though. They had $60 billion in government money to play with over the past year, and got a free pass on a lot of bad past decisions. I am curious to see once they are stockholder owned again, and driven by quarterly profit, and managed the way the old GM was, will the success continue. Sidebar, it would be funny if Toyota bought up a ton of GM stock, I know the Chinese want to buy a lot of it.

Anyone else notice that the 5-series gets 32 mpg with a six cylinder? Can Cadillac make a 32 mpg V6 ATS and CTS, and if so, how long til we see it? Hyundai will have an 8-speed next year, and is working on a 10-speed transmission. I just wonder if Cadillac is really going to push the envelope, and come out with brand new 4,6, and 8 cylinder engines, 8-speed transmissions standard across the board, etc. Or will the 2013 ATS arrive with the same engine/tranny you got in an 08 CTS.

Well HELOC rates are very low right now, and you get the tax write off, so that is a good way to buy a car. But that is beside the point, Mercedes sales have seen a strong increase this year, the S-class is up 29% this year. So the economy isn't hurting people that can afford a $100,000 car. E-class is up over 50%. I don't think Mercedes or BMW are overpriced. They are priced similar to the competition as they were 10 or 20 years ago. They are built to last, and have a loyal following. But I do agree with you that Cadillac can not get Mercedes level pricing. So Cadillac has to go down to Lincoln and Acura level, they can win there. They can't win against the Germans without significant investment from GM.

Cadillac seems to be chasing Infiniti to a degree. Infiniti has a near the top of the class G37, and the M37/M56 is often considered one of thet op cars in the class, Car and Driver picked it twice over all the Germans. So Infiniti already has what Cadillac is trying to get with the 2014 ATS and CTS, yet where is Infiniti compared to Mercedes-Benz? Infiniti has half the recognition, brand power, and status as Mercedes does. Building and entry and mid-level car isn't enough if you really want to challenge the big guys. I actually think Cadillac should give up on going after Mercedes and BMW and turn their focus on Lincoln, Acura, and Volvo. All three are weak, and if Cadillac can get a strong hold in that segment, they should survive in 10 years when Hyundai busts in there with their own luxury brand and puts all those weak brands under. What happened to Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Mercury, Plymouth, and Saturn during the "rise of Sonata" can easily happen to Volvo, Lincoln and Acura in 10 years.

This car will tell you that performance isn't about doing one thing well, it is about doing everything well.

Putting a big engine in a car doesn't necessarily make it better than the competition. Is the Dodge Charger better than a LaCrosse, CTS 3.6, G37, A4, or even a Maxima just because it has a big engine? The CTS-V in a straight line can beat a Mercedes or BMW, but in 10 years, the CTS will be full of squeaks and rattles, the leather will be worn out and cracked, interior trim pieces will be loose, etc. It just isn't as well made as a German car.

Cadillac has been re-positioning it's lineup for 8 years though. ATS is coming, new CTS is coming, a flagship is coming, competitive product is coming... Mercedes did all that 30 years ago. Why hasn't Cadillac already done it, why is it always "wait til next year" Power isn't going away, just at GM it is. The S-class is replacing the 385 hp V8 with a 420 hp V8 with 500 lb-ft. This will be the new standard fare Mercedes V8. Yes, BMW and Mercedes make diesels and hybrids, but they are just compliments to their powerful gas engines. Cadillac doesn't have a diesel, and has one hybrid that gets 20 mpg. I don't know that the ATS and CTS will ever get to the head of the class, that is the problem Cadillac has. By going down market as they have on some recent products, or cutting corners, they are constantly behind. I believe Cadillac is about 20 years behind Mercedes right now, and Mercedes is not standing still, so how does Cadillac catch them?

You are spot on. I also don't know why they think they have to make the CTS bigger, it is already slightly larger than an E-class or Lexus GS. Cadillac is stuck with the corporate V6, and coming CAFE regulations. GM is a truck heavy company, they need cars to offset that, so Cadillac gets the short end of the stick on the CAFE front and in development dollars. I don't know if it is fear or incompetence, but Cadillac seems unwilling to price a car at $50,000 or more. They have had two in their history, the Alante and XLR, both were busts. The STS-V was another high priced car that failed, as the STS in general has, and that is only a $46,000 car to start. I believe that Cadillac's plan is to make the CTS the mid-rang car at $40-50,000, the ATS at $30-40,000 and the XTS at the $46-55,000 slot currently held by the DTS. My wonder is if Cadillac continues on the current path, they should be able to outperform Lincoln and Acura for the next 5-10 years, but come 2020, how much competition will Hyundai be bringing to the $30-45,000 range? 10 years ago Hyundai was an afterthought of the $20-30k range, now the Sonata is the #3 selling car in the segment. I do believe that Hyundai in 10 years time will be a solid player in the $30-45k segment, that could spell trouble for Lincoln and Acura that are just running out badge jobs of Fusions and Accords.

42 mpg is impressive, but I suspect the great majority of Cruzes will be automatics. Still 26/37 mpg is right at the top of the class for now, new Focus and Elantra come in the spring so we'll have to wait to see what they get. The 2012 Focus has 160 hp though, I'd trade 1 mpg for an extra 20 horses.

I've seen the Korean version and the spy photos of the soon to debut American version, it looks good. There is also rumor of a 200 hp turbo Elantra, and some say that the 2011 Elantra will reduce world hunger by 37%.

New Elantra next year. That could be the biggest issue the Cruze faces.