smk4565

The C8 with Z51 is a half second faster around the Nurburgring than a BMW M4 competition, half second slower than an M5 CS. That’s not Ferrari territory and both those BMW’s have a back seat. And for $100k the Ferrari you’d get is a Maserati Ghibli or Alfa Romeo Guilia Quadrafiglio.

You are making 2 different arguments. On one hand saying the Corvette can keep up with the exotics but on the other saying that even though the Corvette is down on power or speed from a Ferrari, but it is cheaper, so that is why. The Corvette makes a great performance per dollar argument, but it is not a better performer than the exotics and super cars. And on the flip side, what is stopping GM from making a $300,000 car? Whether it be sports car, sedan, SUV or whatever. If GM engineering is that good, they should be able to build a vehicle at that price point and sell it.

I don't value the Ferrari brand name but others do. Obviously Mercedes has hammered them in Formula 1 the past 8 years and I don't see Ferrari holding the Nurburgring lap record. And no doubt the AMG One will shatter any performance metric the SF90 sets. I don't like Ferraris, but obviously people pay big money for them, new and classics, people will spend millions on one.

A Ferrari 296 is lighter than a Corvette, the Ferrari 488 is 300 lbs lighter than a Corvette, it is lighter than a Porsche 718 too. I think Ferrari could make a sub 4,000 lb EV, which makes their weight 1,000 less than what a lot of others will be probably. The 488 is a 3,000 lbs car, take out 600 lbs for engine and transmission, add 1500 lbs of batteries and electric motors and it is still 3900 lbs. And if battery tech is better by 2030, maybe it is a 1000 lbs of battery and only a 3400 lb car.

Beancounters ate GM now wondering how they can sell a V6 Corvette for $321,000 base price.

Perhaps, but a Ferrari is still going to handle corners better than an EV truck or even something like a Model S, because Ferrari can build that car from carbon fiber and lightweight materials and undercut other EV's on weight. And they can digitize the sound, it's lame but cars pump in fake sound now with gas engines, no reason they can't do it on an EV. And it will still be a Ferrari, and the Ferrari name makes it worth 100 grand more than other cars.

Yeah, look at how much they are worth selling under 10k cars a year. This is why brand name matters. I don't know if FCA was even worth $44 billion when Stellantis was formed. And that is why Ferrari was spun off, because they were worth about the same as the rest of the company however many other brands they had at FCA. Ford worth $55 billion as of today.

https://luxurylaunches.com//ferrari-made-a-staggering-95000-of-profit-on-each-car-it-sold-in-2019.php That was 2019, Ferrari made $1.4 billion EBITA last year so probably a little under $1 billion net income, and they sold like 9900 cars. They are in the $95-100k profit per car the past few years if you just look at profit and cars sold. Obviously some of that profit is t-shirts and merchandise, but without that brand name they wouldn’t move merch.

I am saying the Corvette competes more with the 718 as they overlap directly in price, where as a 911 starts about $40k more than either, and you can run a 911 to $250k or more if you want to. And in Car and Driver's comparison the Cayman beat the Corvette. And as I said, some will take the Corvette's horsepower and performance (and bigger trunk space and practicality), others will take Porsche handling, build quality and brand image. The brand image isn't everything but it is very important. It is why a Ferrari Roma that has the same performance as a Corvette but costs $160,000 more. That Ferrari brand name is why they make $97,000 per car profit. And I think for sure there are people that want a sports car, and they pick a Cayman over a Corvette (or Nissan GT-R or Supra) just because of the Porsche name, and they won't even test drive those other cars because they are a Chevrolet or Nissan. And that actually goes both ways, I am sure there are Corvette owners that won't drive a Porsche because it doesn't have a V8 or is a foreign car or whatever their reason is.

But eventually Tesla will build all that stuff. All the other Teslas had delays, they eventually all got build, and they got production volume up over time. Even if the Cybertruck, Roadster and Semi show up in 2023, that is like 18 months away, I don't think the market will be flooded with EV's by then or that Tesla will miss the boat somehow. Mercedes is showing 5 EV's at the Munich auto show next month, even if they get all 5 on market by 2023, I doubt even they will be outselling Tesla on EV's. And personally I hope Mercedes mops the floor with Tesla, but I think Tesla will be their toughest challenge, more so than Lexus or Cadillac or BMW even have been.

But without the 718, they would still have less sales, those 6k people a year that buy one aren't just going to find an extra $50k for a 911. And my Mercedes is a 2008, and I have no doubt it will last past 2030 if I decided to keep it that long, I have had it 8 years and will eventually replace it, but it is still in like-new condition, no rust, engine doesn't burn or leak oil, it has been paid off for years, so no reason to get rid of it. It still shines this well as a near 14 year old car. IMG_0202.HEIC

Because one is a Porsche and once is a Chevrolet. That is my point. Brand image matters. Not haven driven either of them, I would assume the Corvette is the better car, it has more performance, but Porsche does have the reputation for build quality and reliability as they have racked up a lot of JD Power awards. Now if you look at this Car and Driver article from last year, the 718 Cayman GT4 beat the Corvette Z51 https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a33825844/2020-chevy-corvette-stingray-z51-vs-2020-porsche-718-cayman-gt4/ Granted it was by 1 point in the ratings, and their lap times were .1 seconds apart on the track. So those 2 cars are pretty even, personal preference as to which one you prefer. And if they are even on subjective ratings, and even on a track, then I can see brand name being a deciding factor for people. I wouldn't buy either of them, but I get the appeal each has to buyers.

People that can't afford 911's are buying 718's. And maybe some people that want a 718 GT4 that is a track toy and just want a lighter car. I've sat in the CT6, I wouldn't trade that interior for mine. Low quality materials, after 10 years it will look worn out. Also I have a W211 which I think had a better interior than the W212 pictured there, plus I have the V8 car it has the Nappa leather seats and door inserts, so it is nicer than the base model.

718 exists so Porsche can sell more cars, and some people like a smaller, lighter, more tack friendly and tossable car. The 718 is only 3,021 lbs. Obviously the 911 is their flagship car, but the people shopping for Cayenne's aren't comparing that to Chevy Blazer. Porsche is after a different clientele than Chevrolet. I don't drive a C300, I have an E550, but when I sit in Cadillac's the only interior I'd say is on par with my car is an Escalade. The Cadillac sedans have bad interiors, the CT6 had a bad interior, I see cheap plastic GM switchgear all over the place, it is like sitting in a Chevy. Also a 2021 CT5-V is about as fast as my car from 2008 (in fact they have identical 0-60 times), and I am sure the V8 in my car sounds better than GM's V6. In my current situation with having a company car, I have put 2100 miles on my car in the past 8 months, so it doesn't make financial sense to buy any car when it won't get driven. My next car will either be the current SL550 as it's the last of the hard top convertibles, the next gen SL once it is used and affordable, or EQE if that looks good and I decide to go electric. But the convertibles are dying, might as well get one now while they still last, and in 10 years it will still have value since car companies aren't making them hardly anymore.

It isn't over priced if people pay it, and pay more than that for a 911. If GM could charge 911 prices and pocket an extra $50k profit per car they would do it. Porsche brand name lets you charge more money than Chevrolet brand name. And since this is a Tesla thread, I will go back and say the Tesla brand name is really strong. Tesla will be a formidable opponent to other car companies, especially the mainstream ones, more so than a Mercedes or Porsche that already have brand image and customers used to paying high prices. But when Chevy, Ford, Toyota have to start selling Escape and Rav4 size crossovers at $50k because EV's cost more, that is going to be sticker shock for the people that walk into a Ford or Toyota dealer, where as people will easily hand over $50k for a Tesla SUV that is the size of a RAV4. The Model 3 is basically sized and equipped like a Corolla or Focus, and people will pay $40-60k for one because it's a Tesla. And Tesla has a story behind them, the charging network, etc. Lot of reasons they will be hard to beat.

I think the Corvette is the best sports car under $100k, and they are a great deal on the used car market too. Personally, I wouldn’t buy a Chevy. My first car was a Chevy, then I had the Oldsmobile Aurora, so any GM car except a Cadillac I feel like would be a step down. And after a Mercedes for 8 years, I feel like a Cadillac is even a down grade. If the Corvette had a Cadillac badge with a Cadillac interior then it would be something for me to consider and I’d probably take it over a Porsche. But I wouldn’t buy a Chevy. And when I said I judge a product, brand image is part of that.

Car magazines compare them, buyers don’t. Rich guys living in $2 million dollar houses that own 7 cars aren’t going to Chevy dealers to get great performance per dollar. They are buying the Turbo S or GT3. In fact there is a guy who works in the same office building where my company has an office that bought both, he has a 911 Turbo AWD for winter and also has a GT3, so that’s like $400k spent on Porsches and I heard he has a Lamborghini also. People like that aren’t comparing a Corvette. And Chevy is right to price the Corvette against the Nissan GTR, Supra, 718 Cayman|Boxster, Shelby Mustang, etc. the Corvette is better than all those cars. But exotic cars are a different game.

That is basically what I said, the 911 is better but you pay more for it. Dress up a 911 Turbo S for $225,000 and it is faster and more luxurious than any Corvette. Plus it is Porsche dealership experience vs Chevrolet dealer experience. For even money at $99k when you can get a loaded Corvette vs a bare bones 911, the Corvette is the better buy all day long. But people shopping 911’s or Ferraris are shopping price they want the best car, most exotic, most wow factor, doesn’t matter what it costs. This is why I have long said GM needs a car above the Corvette, make a Cadillac sports car that starts at $200k and can be built up to $400k. Make an electric super car out of carbon fiber or something that has wow factor.

I get that leading in one or two metrics is meaningless, it is like those commercials that say car A has more standard horsepower than car B, meanwhile car B gets better fuel economy and has 2 option engines that car A doesn’t mention in their commercial. But the Cybertruck has a lot of good metrics, attractive price, and unique styling plus the Tesla brand name. I think it will sell just fine, I’d be shocked if it wasn’t 100k units a year and I think they could do 200k. I am not saying the Cybertruck will outsell the F150, but it will take a little market share from existing trucks.

I just said a lot of good things about Tesla, you know, an AMERICAN car company that builds cars in AMERICA. As for more capability, as I said, higher payload, higher tow rating, larger bed, higher ground clearance, better approach and break over angles. As in, MORE of all those things. GM beats Audi? Look at Cadillac, and then look at Audi. One brand is successful worldwide, the other is a a 6th or 7th place contender in 2 markets. Corvette vs 911, the 911 has a far better interior, more features, more customization, and is faster on a track. But the 911 is also a $100-300k price range car, the Corvette is a $60-125k range sort of car, the Corvette is more of a 718 competitor. The 911 is better than the Corvette but it is also like double the money. Corvette wins on value for dollar, 911 wins if you don't care about money. See, I don't care where a car comes from, I judge the product. Also the Jeep fans, those profits go to the Stellantis mothership in France. And future Jeeps will have Peugeot powertrains, and yet there will be will be people out there that will say "I'll never buy a French car, I buy American!", then go turn around and buy a Jeep with a French powertrain, who's profits go to France. American vs Import is not so simple, like 75% of Buicks are made in Asia, yet most Toyotas sold in the USA are made in the USA. That is why I look at the product and company reputation.

Let's unpack these statements. The Cybertruck has a bigger bed than the F150 EV, and has more payload and tows more. So I don't know how it is just a toy, when it has more capability than the F150. And the Wrangler could be considered a toy, the Hummer is too, and people buy Wranglers and pay stupid money for them ($70k for a 4Xe?). A toy can sell and be profitable, but in this case the Cybertruck is more capable, has better ground clearance and off road capability than a Raptor also, which the base F150 Electric can't beat a Raptor off road. Hummer EV isn't faster than a Cybertruck, Cyber truck has a 2.9 0-60 time, in real world it will beat a C8 Corvette because no one gets the Corvette to hook up right. The Watts to Freedom mode is supposed to be 3.0 but I have also seen 3.5 second estimates, which seems more accurate because the Hummer EV is too heavy. If Hummer had more fans than Tesla, the Hummer brand wouldn't have been killed off 12 years ago. As far as Porsche and Audi go, I think the Taycan and e-Tron have good performance, but not as good as Tesla, they don't have Tesla's range either. So came up short on both regards there. The Porsche/Audi have nicer interiors, but also like no space in them, so I don't know what is going on there, an EV should be spacious, not cramped, the Model S is roomier and more practical, so maybe call interior a tie. But also think of that, Audi and Porsche, who Ford/GM can't dream of competing with on their best day, are struggling to beat Tesla. I don't see how Ford/GM so easily do it. Tesla also made $ 1 Billion profit last quarter, GM lost $800 million. Now one bad quarter is meaningless to GM, but Tesla is making money now, they might actually be able to fund expansion. They are still on the rise and growing fast. No other car company is really growing, the rest are all just maintaining.

We don't know those other trucks will be better than the Cybertruck. I don't see GM, Ford or Rivian making a better EV car/SUV than Tesla, and really Porsche hasn't either for that matter either. Tesla knows EV's, I don't think it is so safe to assume that Ford or GM come out with what is basically their 2nd EV effort (after Bolt and Mustang Mach-E) and beat Tesla. Also all those other EV pickups will look the same, the Tesla will stand out, and it will be like how the Wrangler sells well because it is different and there are 10 similar mid-size SUVs out there that all look basically the same.

Agree, maybe those 3 make it but small boutique style car companies struggle, even JLR and Volvo needed sold to bigger companies. So I see it unlikely that Lucid or Fisker with 1-2 cars will be able to stand alone. I think those companies exist with the hope of being bought out like most tech companies, but I don’t think other car companies are looking to buy them out.

That’s a good acquisition, and Daimler is a global company. The Mercedes F1 team is based in England, makes sense to buy up a British EV motor company.

AMG had the Nurburgring record for SUV, until the Urus beat them, they have the wagon and 4 door car records still, and they are half a second behind a specialty equipped Porsche for overall. Mercedes-AMG have 7 consecutive F1 titles. These people know performance, so I am confident they'll have the performance they need. I also recognize that Tesla might be a more formidable competitor than Audi or BMW have been.