smk4565

You mention a few products but a few products don’t make a car company. Like GM needs 12 electric SUVs at minimum, probably more like 15-20. They need EV sedans, EV pickups and vans. Question is if GM, Ford, Mercedes or anyone else cancelled all their gas cars, could they survive? The Mach-e might have a nice conquest rate but Tesla sold 200,000 Model 3/Y in Q2 of 2021 worldwide. That’s like an F150 sales rate, the Mach-E is no where near that.

Lincoln is still rebadging Fords, all 4 of their SUVs are exactly that. They have gotten better at doing it, but it has been the same playbook for 30 years. As far as Tesla goes, the Model Y is roughly same size and price as the Kia EV6 and Hyundai Ionic 5. If you ask a consumer what do they want, a Hyundai, a Kia or a Tesla? I think we know that survey says Tesla. The Mach-E is also priced like a Model Y, so the eventual Lincoln version will be $10-20k more. That is a tall mountain to climb to get consumers to pay more for a Lincoln than a competing Tesla. Tesla is selling a lifestyle, that is what these other people aren’t doing and why something like the VW iD4 was a flop already.

So they like the Aviator, but all the peers sell better. So either Lincoln didn’t do enough on the Aviator, or there brand image is so bad, that people will buy any of the competitors instead even if the Aviator is a better vehicle.

Why aren’t badge snobs buying Lincoln’s? Everyone likes to say that badge snobs just buy a German without even comparing competition vehicles. But why isn’t Lincoln the brand badge snobs want?

Only 2 SUVs at Acura, so that helps pump up their numbers I am sure. The MDX was also up 104% in first half of 2021. RDX sold 27,690 in first half of 2021. Lincoln Corsair had 13,507, Nautilis 11,427. So if you add Lincoln's 3 SUVs = 36,790. The MDX alone is 36,791. And I wouldn't say Acura is any gold standard of brand image, so where does that put Lincoln? If you look at the other guys 3 SUV's that line up with Lincoln and Acura's price range: BMW X3, X4, X5, X6 combined = 74,480 Cadillac XT4, XT5, XT6 combined = 40,453. Lexus NX, RX, GX combined = 104,116 Mercedes: GLB, GLC, GLE combined = 83,295 Volvo: XC40, XC60, XC90 combined = 55,439 Infiniti had about 20k sales, they are a mess. So outside of Infiniti, Lincoln is in the back of the pack again. I imagine Genesis is low for now, but their SUVs just went on sale this year and they seem to be on the rise. I don't think it is badge snob, I think reality is people prefer those other brands because their products are better. And Ford cut sedans to make better SUVs, GM is sort of doing the same, and yet their SUVs are getting beat by the Asians and Europeans.

The GLE is absolutely better than an MDX, but the MDX is $7k cheaper and Acura has 2 SUVs to pick from and Mercedes has 9. So Mercedes is spreading the the sales around more. But obviously Acura has a following with the MDX and does well with it.

Mercedes hasn't gone down market. The CLA has the same price structure as the Cadillac CT5, the most expensive Cadillac sedan. The S-class just got a $15,000 price hike this year. From Daimler's July 2021 press release: July 06, 2021 - Mercedes-Benz Cars delivered 1,182,724 passenger cars (+25.1%) to customers worldwide in the first half of 2021. No one is selling more expensive cars than Mercedes is. Even if you throw away the lower half of their sales, they would outsell GMC and Cadillac combined. Still waiting on that $200,000 GMC. Mercedes can get $90k for a vehicle the size of a Terrain, not sure why GMC can't.

Competitive? Compared to who and who is buying them? I'll just pick the Aviator as an example, since that is thought to be Lincoln's best SUV and compare to others on first half of 2021 sales: Aviator: 11,856 Acura MDX: 36,791 Audi Q7: 17,705 BMW X5: 29,244 (+ X6: 4,612) Cadillac XT6: 13,141 Infniti QX60: 4,306 Lexus GX: 15,406 Mercedes GLE: 35,705 Volvo XC90: 19,981 Infiniti is a mess, throw them out and Lincoln gets beat by everyone else in that segment, losing to a glossed over GMC Acadia that Cadillac is selling, the glossed over Honda Pilot that Acura is selling, a 13 year old badge job 4Runner that Lexus is selling. Lincoln getting beat 3-1 by Mercedes, BMW and Acura. So either the Aviator is a bad product, or the Lincoln brand image is so lousy that even when they build a good product people ignore it and buy one of the others.

I am actually glad that 1/3 of Mercedes are under $50k, because that takes sales away from Acura, Volvo, Lincoln, Lexus, Cadillac, Infiniti, etc. The A-class, CLA, GLA, GLB (aside from being needed in China and Europe with displacement tax and CO2 regs) in the USA take away sales from Volvo XC40/XC60 and S60, Acura RDX/TSX, Cadillac CT4/CT5, XT4, Lexus NX/UX, etc. No reason to let those brands take that volume when Mercedes can take it. And people will pay double the price for that Maybach than they could get a Navigator or Escalade for. Shouldn't Lincoln, Volvo, Cadillac, Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, Tesla and Jaguar all wonder why no one will pay $200k for one of their cars? Zero of those brands are on par with Mercedes until they have a $200,000 car.

Yes you can get a Mercedes for $45,000, you can also get 5 different ones for over $145,000, not sure why it matters. Point is, I don't see Tesla taking on a big threat from $50,000 Kias and Hyundais. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is the same size as a Tuscon, but the Ionic 5 is double the price. People aren't going to spend $50k for a Hyundai compact crossover. Now maybe Hyundai/Kia roll out a $399 a month lease on those things just to move them and that is how they do it.

Lincoln has no credibility now either, not much has changed. I have heard what people liked about the Avalanche was it rides/handles better than a Silverado, because it is basically a Suburban, which is 1 body, not 2 pieces, has better suspension, etc. I don't disagree that there are advantages to it, or that they couldn't sell some volume with it. I just think GM beancounters must have figured that they could sell X number of Avalanche/Escalades but 80-90% of X would just buy a Silverado/Suburban anyway. So even if they lose 10-20% of X units, that is cheaper than building and marketing another model. Not much different than the Germans saying less coupes and convertibles, they figure those people will just buy something else off the lot and if they lose a few people, oh well. I still have doubts that if there were a Lincoln or Cadillac pick up for $85k and a Black Label/Platinum for $100k that it would sell. GM and Ford must have done market research on that and don't see volume there. Years ago, I might have thought they don't want a pick up on a luxury dealer lot, but Lincoln tried it twice, and Lincoln is SUVs only now. Cadillac, maybe if they are trying to be a performance/luxury brand don't want a pick up there, but I doubt they care about that since they make 3 FWD crossovers. So the only reason they don't exist must be that their market research tells them they won't sell.

I don't know if there will be so called $25k or even $30k vehicles from rivals. The Hyundai Ionic 5 is supposed to start around $44,000, the Kia EV6 around $45,000 and those are base models, so add the options and you are at $50k or more. For $50k are you going buy a Tesla or a Hyundai? People are used to paying $50-60k for a BMW or Mercedes, or a Tesla for that matter. But people won't pay $50-60k for a Kia, the K900 flopped, the Stinger flopped, the Cadenza flopped. The Telluride does well, but those are more $40-50k, and a 3 row SUV. Where as the Kia EV6 is smaller than a Sorrento, I think $50k for a Kia compact crossover is a hard sell. The American ones are larger sure, but you can't compare a GLS to a Lincoln Aviator or Cadillac XT6 which are much smaller and cheaper. At least the X7 and GLS cost roughly the same as the big American SUVs. In my example though, the EQE and Model S have nearly identical dimensions, and EQE is supposed to be priced the same as the Model S, sounds like those are competition. The EQS is a foot longer and double the price of the Model S, those aren't direct competitors. That would be like saying the Mercedes S-class and Audi A6 are competitors, they aren't.

All the Germans will have big line ups of EV's, Genesis is going all EV too. So question will become can Tesla keep up with introducing new product, new models, new body styles, new interiors, etc. The Model S has had basically 2 mid-cycle refreshes in nearly 10 years, nothing done with the Model 3 since launch. The Germans usually do an all new model every 7 years with a refresh halfway through. Look at how slow Tesla is to get new product out now, I don't think they'll be able to keep up with how often the competition can pump out new models.

It is a fast car, but that is their top end, the Model S starts at $69k, and $130k for the Plaid. Basically the costs of an E450 or BMW 540i to the E63 and M5. Same price structure, same size cars. Mercedes will have AMG EQE to complete with the Model S Plaid. The EQS53 is 750 hp, now if they named that car the "53" it must be because there is a "63" in the works. There is always an AMG 63. And all they announced so far was EQE350 with single motor, obviously there will be a dual motor, and then an AMG above that. And considering pretty much every car they make has 2 levels of AMG, I don't see why they would change it on the electric cars.

There is no long wheelbase GLS, or X7 for that matter. But the regular Escalade and Navigator and Grand Wagoneer are not too much bigger than the GLS and X7, more importantly they all cost roughly the same. But the GLS and Escalade are the closest vehicles between those 2 brands, as the GLE and XT6 are close in size and price, etc. The Model S is not close in size or price the the EQS, however the EQE is almost identical to the Model S. Just as there will be an EQ C-class that will be the size of a Model 3, and there is going to be an EQ A-class under that. Mercedes is going to have 4 EV cars to Tesla's 2, I don't know why anyone would compare a mid-size Tesla to a full size Mercedes when there is mid-size Mercedes also.

What would you like to compare them by? Length, width height are all within an inch on EQE and Model S, and the EQE estimated cost is the same as a Model S.

Publications compared EQS and Tesla Model S, because for a month or 2 the EQS was the only EV Mercedes. Tesla Model S dimensions: 196" L x 77" W x 57" H wheelbase 116.5" base price $69,000 Now which of these 2 cars is closer to the Model S: EQS dimensions: 207" L x 83.6" W x 60" H wheelbase 126.4". est base price $124,000 EQE dimensions: 196.6" L x 77" W x 59" H wheelbase 122.9" est base price $65,000 EQS AMG, EQE, EQB all released in production trim, on sale in 2022. EQG and Maybach EQ-SUV concept shown, but those are 90% of the way to production, those are 2023 models with the standard EQS SUV and EQE SUV, and AMG version of the EQE, supposed to be a Maybach EQS also. By the end of calendar year 2023 Mercedes will have more EV's than Tesla. They might not outsell Tesla, but they are going to have more models.

I think the exterior is pretty meh, they missed on the exterior as the E-class and S-class look far better than the electric cars, why would I pay more for an uglier car? Interior of the EQE looks awesome, they nailed that. Problem is they are designing these EV's by wind tunnel, they need to sacrifice 10 miles of range in the name of styling.

First off, pointless comparison as the EQE is identical in size to the Tesla Model S. That is the Model S competitor, Tesla doesn’t have an EQS competitor, maybe they should build a full size luxury car, although they have other more urgent needs. Mercedes does have catch up to do, but they are on a mission. They released 3 new EV’s today (GLB, EQS AMG, and EQE) and near production ready concept electric G-wagen and Maybach SUV. 5 new EV’s in one day, plus a promise of EQE and EQS SUVs for next year. They are coming for Tesla. A Maybach is way more money than a Hummer, also that Hummer interior isn’t that nice. Where I think GM could do well is doing a midsize suv that is off road focused and EV that takes inspiration from the Hummer, but it half the cost and they can sell Chevy and GMC versions. So when you have people interested in a Hummer but don’t have $100k or don’t want a vehicle that big they have an easy transition to a sale.

Mercedes is the #1 selling luxury car brand in the world, yet "they do not sell that many luxury vehicles" ??? Who is selling more luxury cars than them? Who has a higher % over $50k, over $100k, or whatever other number you want to pick from. I don't know that Mercedes "wants" to go down market, I mean a CLA has the same price structure of a Cadillac CT5, it isn't really down market, it is priced like Cadillac most expensive sedan. Mercedes needs small cars for fuel economy and emissions reasons, they can't just sell V8 AMG's. Plus they want to have a complete line up of small, medium, large to hit a wide range of buyers, you have to have entry level product to bring people into a brand. It seems to be there is nearly $100,000 price difference between the Mercedes full size SUV and the GMC. Please find me the Lexus or Audi sedan in this price range: And I would love to see the BMW "Ultimate Driving Machine" rival to this: And then there is this guy that has 37 exterior color choices 31 interior color choices. Part of luxury is choice, what does Tesla have, like 4-5 exterior colors and 2 interior colors? Will the GMC Hummer have 37 color choices? Uh-oh, it is also rather easy for a CLA250 to cost over $50k:

Mercedes is doing an electric G-wagen, there is your answer. The G-wagen is the king of all SUVs, I am shocked there isn't a Maybach version of it (besides that convertible they did on the last one), but they'll have the electric and it will still be an icon. The public wants SUVs here, of which Mercedes has 9 of them, and 2 more coming next year, I think 11 is enough freaking SUVs. But in China sedans still sell, same with Europe. Mercedes sells like 325k units in the USA, vs 2 million outside of the USA, the American market isn't what steers their ship, like these other car companies. Tesla has problems for sure getting new product out, but their current product is still selling faster than they can make it. So what we basically have here is a race to flood the market with EV's and then you also need people to buy these. But assuming people do buy EV's, then it comes down to who can get the product out, and that will be the companies with deep pockets and lots of manufacturing capacity. Which is the VW's, Mercedes, GM's Toyota's of the world, and not the Rivians and Lucids of the world. Lucid just had a big stock crash yesterday as a lot of their early investors cashed out since they had agreements to keep the money in for 6 months or something and the time frame passed. Lucid stock is down 23% in the past 6 months, GM down 7% Tesla up 12%. Ford, Honda and Diamler have small gains, but Toyota is up 18.4% in the past 6 months, Toyota has $46 Billion cash on hand, that's a crap ton. But GMC is supposed to be better than Chevy, not equal to Chevy.

I advocated for GMC Sierra to have SLT, AT4 and Denali trims, but also I would keep 2WD, 4WD, turbo 4, 5.3 V8, 6.2 V8, and regular, super and quad cab configuration, plus 2500/3500 also. I want to wipe out basically any Sierra under $45-50k and steer those buyers to Chevy. The Tundra has a supercab only available on the base model, other wise is the quad cab with 1 engine choice. That is my problem with the Tundra. Plus the Silverado is the competitor to the Tundra, and they can run a dozen versions of the Silverado if they want. And there is no point to 40 SUVs, but that is what car companies do, I just watched a video on the Corolla Cross today, because Toyota clearly thought they need more SUVs and the 6 or 7 they have wasn't enough. And maybe the Yaris Cross will come here, why the hell not, more, more, more SUVs is what car execs think.

They don't have to copy the 1920s, but have brands more defined by price structure. So if you have a small SUV for example, the Chevy starts at $25k, the Buick version $30k, the GMC $35k and the Cadillac $45k. But right now an Equinox and Terrain overlap in price, the Envision and XT4 are like $4k apart. Probably even more so important now that Buick doesn't have sedans, at least when Buick had sedans, they could focus on cars while GMC did trucks in the Buick-GMC dealership. Jaguar-Land Rover has the same problem, once they kill all the Jaguar cars and Jaguar just makes SUVs, what is the point of 2 SUVs of the same size, same price, same engine, same switchgear, etc in the same dealership.

But the Lincoln Mark LT failing sort of proves my point. Even if it was a badge job, if the Lincoln badge carried weight, and people wanted a truck from a luxury brand, they should be willing to pay extra for the badge alone. And I agree the Mark LT was poor execution, what would need to happen is more of the difference you see in a Navigator and an Expedition Limited to justify the price difference. I write estimates on cars, the Avalanche basically has the same parts and schematics as a Suburban, they are a Suburban with the roof cut off in back basically, so it would make more sense to build them with the Suburban rather than the Silverado. But sales declined on those, GM obviously thought there wasn't enough of a market for Avalanche/EXT or that people would just buy a Silverado anyway and they'd still get their money. The Tundra is super dated, engine sucks, it is way too thirsty and they don't have enough variants over all. They make like 9 versions of the Rav4, yet like 1 version of the Tundra, no wonder it does't sell. If Toyota was aggressive with the Tundra as they are on Camry and Rav4 re-designs and engine choices and hybrids, then I think the Tundra would hit that 200k. The Titan/Armada/QX80 are a disaster, also super dated and never were competitive to begin with, they should just kill all that off, make some 3 row electric SUV, bring back an Xterra BOF SUV based of the new Frontier that is like $30-40k, people would buy that. Bu Luxury truck, you are talking about a luxury trim of an existing truck. For sure there is room for Denalis and F150 Limited. But do you see a market for a truck from a luxury brand, like Cadillac or Lincoln or Lexus?

And those are base models with no options. That doesn't exist on a dealer lot. Here is a GLB without any options added on True car over $50k: And here is the Cadillac CT5, is the ATP on that really $37k? Your TrueCar numbers are worthless because all it is showing is an expected sale price on the base trim, base model, no options vehicle. And that vehicle doesn't even exist on a dealer lot. Just like GMC sells 40% Denali, or whatever the rate is, people put options on Mercedes too, people buy E450s, they buy AMGs, buy more V8 S-classes than V6 ones. It's the same thing on just about every brand.