smk4565
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Everything posted by smk4565
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Cool, as a low cost basic commuter car they make sense. It looks practically new. And it is rear engine-rear drive like a Porsche 911.
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Lincoln Navigator sales averaged 33,517 for its first 10 years on market 1997-2006. Then the GL went on sale. The Navigator has averaged 9,510 sales per year since 2008 model year. Ford's approach is getting hammered.
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The current Navigator went on sale in 2007 model year. The new one is coming in 2017? 10 years on the market! And a lot of those body panels you can tell came from an Expedition. There has to be a better way to produce your most expensive model.
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Jeremy Clarkson once did an off road test of an Escalade, Range Rover and a Hummer H2 for one of his DVDs. It was to see which could climb some mountain out in the desert. The Escalade was obviously the first one out, it didn't get that far. The Ranger Rover got to the top. The G-wagen has 3 locking differentials, it is made for off road. Important to remember that Mercedes was going to kill the G-wagen off in 2006, the fans wanted them to keep making it. Mercedes is just giving the people what they want.
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But what works for Cadillac isn't working for Lincoln. The F150 sits on the market too long before getting chassis updates, and is the F150 chassis what you want to use as the basis of your BMW X7, Merc GL, Maserati Levante, and Jag-LR products. Lincoln isn't a tier one brand, making a Navigator off the Explorer platform gives them 380 hp/460 lb-ft turbo V6 in a 5,000 lb vehicle for $55k. That matches up extremely well against top end Tahoes, Enclaves, MDX, undercuts the Escalade a lot in price while offering better acceleration and fuel economy. It gives Lincoln a chance. Lincoln doing a half assed job turning and F150 into an Escalade competitor hasn't worked since like 2006 when the previous generation Escalade stepped it up.
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The Genesis has a V8 and RWD, so I think that gives it a bit of an edge over the front drive V6 crowd. I did just look up the price of an Acura RLX which is $54k base and $60k with a technology package. I think Acura has a better reputation than Lincoln, and the RLX has awful sales volume, but only 315 hp or whatever they got out of the Accord V6. I could agree with Drew's $51k starting point, if the content level is high. I think $49k starting will grab more attention though. The Continental needs aggressive pricing, I'd almost suggest they sell it at a loss to get Lincoln back in the game if they are actually serious about resurrecting Lincoln.
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As I said the Escalade hits the sweet spot for those that want a big, brash, arrogant American car. There is a customer base that loves that and the Escalade has a loyal following. But other full size body on frame SUVs have been declining, CAFE is getting higher, global emissions regulations higher, in time some of them will go away. When Ford was selling over 400,000 BOF Explorers every year who would have thought less than 10 years later the model would actually get discontinued for a while before returning as a unibody. If Lincoln merged the MKT and Navigator into one new unibody product (still using Navigator name) they could have a more competitive vehicle. But instead we know they'll just keep rebadging Fords with minimal changes because that is the cheapest way to design a car. That is why the Navigator is dated as can be, because the Expedition is dated as can be.
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The CT6 has a long hood and short deck because that is how Mercedes and BMW design cars. They surely didn't make the hood on the CT6 that long because it had to be to fit the V6 under it. The Continental from the side looks a lot like the last Saab 9-5. Pricing will be interesting to see on both cars. For the Continental, I think they need to make 400 hp standard and start it at $49k. They need to go for absolute wow factor or it will just get over looked.
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Plus, the G-wagen is the only car that can fly.
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A full size SUV based on the Genesise RWD structure could be really good. They have a 330 hp V6 which would be okay for a base model, the 5.0 V8 would be perfect for it, and a turbo V6 is supposed to be in the works. If they could make this SUV in the $47-57k range they could have a winner. People spend that much on a Tahoe.
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A lot of those MKS and XTS sales are fleet and livery market, and the MKS and XTS start at $45k Not quite the starting point of those Germans. There is speculation that the Continental will be $60-80,000, good luck selling a fancy Taurus for that money.
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A Navigator is near 6,000 lbs, a loaded Ford Explorer is 4,800. Even if they add extra luxury goodies and a couple inches of lenth to the Explorer, they could keep the weight to 5,000 lbs. 1,000 less than the current Navigator. The ML and GL both are rather heavy, that is something Mercedes should address on the next generation, as they share a chassis. They should be able to get 200 lbs of weight out of both.
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Because the competition hasn't beat them yet. 10-15 years ago pick up based big SUVs were all there were. Then the GL game along and beat all the other guys and even beat the Escalade in sales a couple times. Add the X7 in there, updated Q7 and slowly they may eat away at those truck based sales. Remember when the Explorer, Blazer, Envoy, 4Runner and all those 90s SUVs were body on frame? Then the Lexus RX showed the world a luxury crossover, soon all those body on framers were gone, and every brand pushed crossovers because they rode and handled better, got better gas mileage etc. The Escalade is well done, GM is the best at big body on frame SUVs. But that is a dying breed. The Tahoe/Escalade my survive as the last of the breed while Toyota, Ford, Nissan give up that market. The Escalade hits that sweetspot of huge, bling, flashy, and pop culture icon, but it is going to be hard for Lincoln to copy all that. That is why they should attack from a different angle.
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The main problem with the likes of the MKS, Catera, S-type, Mark VIII, etc is they are half assed products. Mostly spawned in a hasty combination of platform share, engine share, mediocre styling, low rent interiors, etc. Those cars took short cuts regardless of platform. If you want a good luxury car it has to be purpose built, it can't be built out of a Fusion or Malibu. What are the best front wheel drive luxury cars on the market today? The Volvo S80, Lexus ES350, Cadillac XTS? Compared to the Rolls-Royce Phantom, Mercedes S-class, Bentley Mulsanne, and BMW 7-series on the rear wheel drive group. I think I'd rather have a car in the second group over the first.
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I wonder if she wishes should could have a nicer car than a Corvette, but doesn't want to buy a car from another car maker.
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But there won't be an Escalade with the LT4 and even if there were, there is an AMG GL63 to top that and likely a V12 GL600 on the way, and last I checked GM, Ford and Toyota don't have a V12 in the arsenal to compete with that. The Navigator and other big SUVs have gotten tired because the companies that make them got lazy, that is true. But if you were planning on making a luxury SUV, why would you choose a pick up chassis as your base? Pick up trucks don't really scream luxury ride and handling. This is why the NAvigator should move to a unibody chassis, they could probably cut 1,000 lbs of weight, while still using the Ecoboost 3.5 liter and make a better riding, better handling, quick, more fuel efficient SUV than the Escalade, and maybe Lincoln could get back in the game.
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Camrys are front wheel drive. Formula 1 cars are rear wheel drive.
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MT also tested the V6 GL450 vs the V8 Escalade. Put the GL550 in there and it wins all the performance categories, although that might not have changed their outcome. I do agree with MT that that GL interior is looking a bit dated, it is too utilitarian looking. The C-class and S-class have really moved away from that back to a luxury design though. The Escalade is the best executed and best marketed body on frame SUV, and that is why it has had success. They have also kept the formula the same and improved it over the generations. The other big body on frame SUVs just look hopelessly dated by comparison to the Range Rover and GL. And the BMW X7 is coming. Look at where the Navigator, Infiniti QX and Lexus LX570 were 10 years ago, compared to now. They are all falling in sales, they could all be gone in another 10 years.
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What Lincoln should do it move the Navigator to the Explorer platform to make it a unibody SUV. The Explorer is the same width as the Navigator, but the Navigator is 8 inches longer. I am sure they could lengthen the Explorer a little bit, even if it was to 203 inch overall length. Then you can use the 2.7 and 3.5 liter Ecoboost V6s because there is less weight to pull around, the ride, handling and fuel economy would be better, and they could probably price it in the $50s, rather than low $60s. That would create a better selling vehicle. The Navigator and Escalade had big early success because they were able to sell on bling factor and bigger was better. But just like the body on frame sedans (Town Car, Fleetwood, Brougham) got put out to pasture because the unibody imports were better, the same will soon happen to SUVs. The Infiniti QX80 and Lexus GX and LX are basically all dead, while the German SUVs thrive, and Jaguar, Bentley, Maserati, and Lamborghini are all getting into the mix. Lincoln's path to crossover success is the MKC (renamed) starting around $33k, MKX becomes Aviator starting at $42k, Explorer based Navigator starting at $55k. That creates a small-medium-large set up, undercuts the Germans on price, keeps the MKC and MKX priced like a Lexus or Acura.
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BMW News: 2016 BMW X1 - The First Front-Wheel Drive BMW For the U.S.
smk4565 replied to William Maley's topic in BMW
AWD has benefit in bad weather over RWD, but if you put summer only tires on an all wheel drive car, what happened to Clarkson in the X6 will happen, doesn't matter if you have 8 wheel drive if the tires have no grip. As far as the X1 vs SRX, they aren't the same class. The X1 is cheaper and 14 inches shorter in length. The X1 is smaller than an ATS, the Mercedes GLA is even smaller, almost Buick Encore sized. -
The Continental will probably be priced too high to be a livery vehicle. They might push the MKS into that category. The MKT needs no replacement, they have a MKC, MKX and Navagator, that gives them a small, medium, large SUV trio.
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All these countries shaded in blue use the G-class in their military.
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Peak hp numbers are misleading. The power band matters more because rarely are you driving with the engine at 6,000 rpm. Plus torque affects acceleration, horsepower affects top speed. Torque is the more important thing to compare.
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^^ True dat.