smk4565

My initial thought is I prefer the Mach-E, EV6 and Ionic 5 to this. Essentially Chevy next summer is offering price, performance, and range that the other guys have now and I think the Kia and Hyundai look better than this.

If Genesis, Lincoln, Acura, Infiniti, or Volvo came out with a $250,000 sedan they would get laughed at and criticized. Cadillac is in the same league as that group. I get that the dealer is who is cashing in, but that is because the manufacturers can't get their production up. The G-wagen has over a 2 year wait right now, I don't know how much of that is supply chain or how much is Magna Styer can't produce enough. But if people are paying $250,000 for used G-wagens, you'd think other luxury brands might think it's a good idea to make a luxury off roader.

The electric SUVs are coming like 6 months after the sedans, they do have an electric GLB that will be on sale before the EQE here too. Plus China and Europe where Mercedes does most of their business aren't as SUV crazy as the USA is. And Mercedes isn't in Rolls-Royce's range either. The Maybach cars are clearly above all of what Mercedes competitors offer, but still not Rolls level.

But Cadillac isn't Rolls-Royce, they are closer to VW's price point. The Volkswagen Arteon has a higher base price than the CT5 and they are the same size car. Cadillac struck out on multiple attempts to tackle BMW and Lexus, now they are just going for Rolls-Royce? It's a big jump for the consumer, even if the car has the goods.

Let's say it is even $200k, and priced against a Maybach (sedan or SUV, gas or electric, and there is a Maybach SL coming). This car better be spectacular, because they are working with a badge deficit. And all these luxury brands seem to be coming out with $100k+, $200k+ EV sedans at a time when sedan sales are tanking. Personally I like sedans, but these people are fighting over a really small segment of buyer, and we just saw cars like the CT6, XJ, Continental, K900 all get gilled, because big luxury sedans don't sell, and those cars weren't even that expensive compared to this high end crowd.

Back in 2004 a VW Passat was about $22k base and near $40k for the W8 4-motion ($34k and $62k respectively in today's dollars) The Phaeton was $65,000 for the W8 and $95,000 for the W12 ($102k and $150k in today's dollars). The Phaeton was nearly triple the price of a Passat, a huge jump which is my point. The CT5 starts at $38k, $84k starting for a Blackwing, let's call $60k the middle, if the Celistiq is $300k that is 5 times the price of Cadillac's 2nd most expensive sedan. It is a bigger jump than VW tried with the Phaeton which was an obsessively engineered car. A luxury off roader may not be needed at Cadillac, but G-wagens and Range Rovers go for $50k+ over sticker right now, seems like good business to be in. GMC could do a Hummer Denali (and 100% should) but I there is room above that I think too. Not that GM needs to play in every segment. I'd rather put the R&D dollars into a Cadillac sports car/convertible (especially if it is priced more like the Lyric and less like the Celestiq) where you can build some image and get enough volume to justify the project.

I get that it’s low volume, but it isn’t a hyper car, it’s a full size sedan. This is like when VW brought out the Phaeton W12 and yeah it was a great car and no one bought it and the brand image went nowhere, because it didn’t fit the line up. Cadillac still needs a couple luxury sedans that can do volume, a convertible, an off roader, a sports car, to go with the lyriq and whatever electric crossovers slot below and above the Lyriq. And maybe all of that is coming. The Celestiq better be Rolls-Royce Phantom beating otherwise why not just get a Maybach, Bentley, or Rolls?

No way they can sell over 1,000 Celestiqs a year, at least not in the US, if they are exporting to China, maybe. The EV6 GT-line starts at $51k, that’s 320 hp. There is a 580 hp GT coming. The Mazda 6 is supposed to return as a premium rear drive sedan, Mazda developed a new twin turbo inline six for it and an inline 6 diesel. Also coming are CX-70 and CX-90 SUVs to go upmarket with those engines.

It will take more than one car, and this car has to be successful, not just expensive like the Allante was, but ultimately a flop. And Cadillac still has a bunch of mediocre front drive crossovers and a couple poor selling sedans making up the bulk of the line up. I know all that stuff is probably dead in 2025, but the whole brand needs an overhaul, and they overhauled it in 2003-2005, again in 2013-2015, now again in 2023-2025. They keep overhauling this brand and keep getting it wrong.

Need to see the actual production version, not sure if what is being shown next week is a concept or the actual production version. Either way though, I think the demand for a $200,000+ Cadillac is pretty non-existent. I know they only plan on building like 300 cars a year, but I don't see what this really does for the brand. On a side note, almost every car brand has this vision of going up market and more exclusive, but I don't think buyers want a $50k rear drive inline 6 cylinder powered Mazda 6, or a $70,000 Kia GT EV6, or Lucid with their $150,000 sedan, Rivian with their $100,000 pick up. What would be 100 times more impressive is if a brand made an electric sedan that cost $35,000 and they sold 300,000 of them a year.

They don't make a $100,000 car in the USA, the Asian market cars are more expensive when you do direct conversion of their currency to US dollar. The Mercedes S500 base price is 188.6 million won in South Korea ($144,500 direct conversion), that's still more than the fully maxed out G90 at 182 million won. A loaded G90 is $81,775 in the US, not exactly range topper luxury. I believe it was a quarterly number, I got it from a list of all car companies Q2 results. Ford is down 8% for the year, so probably the early part of Q2 was bad and June was good.

I left them out because they didn't report the numbers yet.

June 2022 was Tesla's best month for deliveries ever. They still have a lot of pent up demand, if they can get the Shanghai, Austin and Berlin factories all cranking away, they could put up some massive numbers.

But Tesla is up 53%, so they obviously aren't being crushed by supply chain since they are mostly vertically integrated. Whoever can crack the supply chain problem first (or maybe 2nd and 3rd too) and get EV production booming is going to win, the ones that don't will lose, probably get consolidated into another car company as very few actually go out of business. And that might be GM, it is like a big reset button right now. There is an estimated 3-4 million units of pent up demand right now, whoever stocks their dealer lots first could get massive market share. There is very large Chevy dealer near me, they have 3 new vehicles in stock. The Mercedes dealer across the street has 81. GM or any other car company can't have dealers with 3 cars in stock, they should have over 100, if they had 300 cars in stock they'd probably sell them in a month given how much demand is out there. Whoever gets the inventory first wins, and I'd say EV inventory as well, because if you order a Tesla is still about a 6 month wait on average, some models are a 1 year wait, if the rivals had cars in stock you could get today, they could beat Tesla.

Conversion rates aren’t the same, in China direct conversion an S-class is like $200k. And $140k US is not even a loaded S580, let alone a Maybach or AMG. You can find used S-classes for over $200k, same goes fir G-wagon and several other AMG models. Genesis will never make a $200,000 car and never have a collector car or museum car. The Mercedes 300SLR coupe sold for $143 million at auction this year. So there is the standard. When Genesis sells a car for $143 million they can be in Mercedes league.

True but it is still a Ford. Lincoln makes nothing of their own, just fancy Fords.

Sure, Genesis has more prestige than Mercedes. They don't make a single model over $100k. They make a nice little effort, at least, they went rear drive rather than just badge jobbing a Hyundai and making front drive crossovers like Lincoln does. But Genesis is basically what Infiniti was 15 years ago, with the G35, M35, Q56, and the FX45 crossover that were all rear drive, performance oriented, nicer than a Nissan ,but not as nice as a German car, but cheaper than a German car. Infiniti fumbled that strategy, because Nissan as a company has no direction, but basically Genesis is Infiniti of 15 years ago.

2022 Q2 sales volume came out today, GM down 15%, Honda down 50%, Toyota down 22%, Stellantis down 15%, Hyundai-Kia down 19%, BMW down 20%, Nissan down 39%, Mazda down 42% Subaru down 18%. Ford was up 5%, VW group up 2% so those 2 are treading water, the rest are tanking. Tesla is expected to be up 53% GM has sold 20,253 EV's in 2022, Tesla is at 228,700 estimated (final numbers not out). Tesla is rolling right now, at even half their current growth rate they will be at 1.1 million units a year in the USA in 2026, 2.7 million units in 2030. I am not saying it will happen, but look at the beating the other guys are taking. And how long will it take for the legacy OEMs to not have 1 EV in the product line, but 5 or 6 all of which are built in volume and in stock on dealer lots. Probably the only way the other guys can beat Tesla is to #1 undercut the price, and #2 have rows of EV's sitting on dealer lots, because with a Tesla you are still ordering online and waiting 6 months to get it. My local Mercedes dealer has 82 cars in stock, but 51 are GLC's and zero are EQS. If a car company can put 50 EV's on the lot, that is how you beat Tesla.

True on the lack of competition. But Tesla still outsells all other EV’s combined. The traditional OEM’s need to bring the fight, they aren’t yet.

I think frunks are over rated. Maybe it is useful in a pickup that doesn't have any covered cargo area, but in a car or SUV that have a trunk or cargo space, I don't think that is going to make or break any buyer's decision that they can't put grocery bags in the frunk, they have to put them in back.

Tesla has the highest owner loyalty in the industry, over 70%. I don't think they have to worry about people leaving. Even at 25k units a year, the Lexus RX sells like 150k units a year, granted it is a cheaper vehicle, the Tesla 3/Y do big numbers. GLE, MDX and X5 do pretty strong numbers, usually in that 50-75k unit range. Cadillac needs at least 1 if not 2 SUV's smaller than Lyric and at least 1 if not 2 larger than the Lyric, have to have at least 4 SUVs, so they better be able to ramp up production on these. Much like GM needs to figure out how to scale this Ultium stuff up, they should be targeting over a million EV's a year by 2025. Gas isn't going to come back down $5-6 is here to stay, and I suspect the transfer from ICE to EV is going to happen fast, those you scale up first will win the race. Maybe so since most GM cars are smaller on the inside than they should be, and the EV packaging benefit. But the GV60 is like Audi Q3 sized, which gives them room for 70, 80, 90 sized ones above it.

It's like they saw the Taycan and the Mercedes 1-bow design and said "yes, I'll have that." So I assume this is bigger and more expensive than an Ionic 5? $60k for a Sonata replacement? Exactly the same as the Kia EV6 and Ionic 5.

The GV60 is smaller than a Cadillac XT4, while the Lyriq is like XT6 size. The Lyriq has a good starting price, especially the dual motor that only adds $2k. Question in how much does that price go up with options and can GM actually make enough. I think I read they were making like 2,000 units this year. Tesla sells 67% of the EV's in the USA because all these other bozos can't get their production up. The Lyriq's main battle I think will be the badge on the front, unless they can just undercut Tesla and the Germans on price to where people ignore it.

I never said that the Blazer EV was going to be anything like the current Blazer. I said the current V6 Blazer is bad, and that GM 3.6 has reliability issues too. GM's current crossovers like Tract, Equinox, Blazer, Traverser and their GMC/Buick counterparts are all lacking compared to the Asian competition. Much like the Cruze, Malibu, Impala, Lacrosse, etc lagged behind the Asian sedans that are still here. History is repeating itself in the crossover market. The EV's allow a reset button to be hit, so we'll see how the Ultium cars do.

Aside from the fact that the Blazer should be been more along the lines of the 4Runner, Wrangler, Bronco, (and the Xterra that Nissan should have), and is positioned wrong in the first place. Even as just a crossover, it has a cheap interior, no hybrid option, the poor resale value that comes with a Chevy, and compare it to the Venza, Santa Fe and Sorrento (that offer 3rd rows too), Honda Passport, etc. All those cars after better, just like the Telluride, Highlander, Pilot and Palisade are leaps and bounds better than the Traverse.