smk4565
-
Posts
13,686 -
Joined
-
Last visited
-
Days Won
11
Content Type
Forums
Articles
Gallery
Events
Store
Collections
Everything posted by smk4565
-
GM is already developing a mid-engine sports car, the money is already being spent. Without question that should be a Cadillac. The best engineering, the best styling, the best performing cars GM makes should be Cadillacs. It isn't like I am saying stop development work on the next Equinox, Cruze or Malibu which are volume products that GM has to have, and divert resources to a Cadillac vanity project. In this case GM is already spending the time and money on a mid-engine car, giving it to Cadillac doesn't mean Chevy can't get a new crossover or sedan to market. The price escalation of the Camaro and Corvette is sort of like the size creep that occurs with Focus, Fusion, Cruze, Malibu. As those cars get bigger and more and more equipment, it pushes them against the Taurus and Impala, and basically the Taurus and Impala will be gone around 2020 so we can have $30,000 Malibus and Fusions. There is proof in the pudding too, the CTS used to sell 50-60,000 units a year, then they desired to make it bigger and more expensive in gen 2, and bigger and more expensive in gen 3, in the meantime killing the STS (their range topper at the time). So now you have what was the entry level CTS as the mid-level Cadillac and sales are about 15,000 a year. 60,000 down to 15,000. By 2020, I would not be surprised if the cheapest V8 Camaro is $48,000 and the cheapest V6 is $38,000 with the base car being $31k. I am not buying a Camaro so I don't care, but by 2020 they'll be selling 3,000 Camaros a month.
-
One big problem with the XLR is it was less powerful and slower than the Corvette, yet $25,000 more. The other issue is they wanted to go directly against the Mercedes SL, and the Allante failed at that, Jaguar XK failed, Lexus SC failed, etc. No car survived, the SL is the last luxury roadster left. Audi never made a proper sports car before they made the R8, Acura was a car company for about 4 years when they launched the NSX. Cadillac just has to dive in and stay the course. Instead of GM pumping more and more money into making expensive Chevys, they should put those resources toward Cadillac.
-
And that 638 HP Corvette had a Cadillac price tag. Maybe same price tag with that 469 HP Cadillac.Quite possibly a HIGHER price tag than it even.. And just to add to my post above... SMK... Find me the price tag of that 2002 Camaro SS anniversary edition and while you are at it, find me the price tag of the 2002 Pontiac Trans A WS6 collector edition (convertibles too) just to see how much those cost back in the day versus Toyota... But also do an equipment list comparison including the quality of the interior materials with the last special editions F-Bodies with a normal 2016 Camaro SS and see where the money went in the price tag. When you do that, I promise you, you will think the Alpha Camaro is a steal! Guys...the Alpha Camaro is much, much more than just a pony car... Once you folk realize what that means, then you wont be bitchin' about the price tag. Especially you SMK... You dont like BMW, but Mercedes Benz has NOTHING in THEIR stable either at ANY price point that beats the Alpha Camaro in performance... The upcoming ZL1 will EMBARRASS German cars twice and three times the ZL1's price tag in ANY performance metric you wanna throw at it! The ecotec turbo 4 also is quite the performer out gunning ANY German car at that price point... THAT is why the Alpha Camaro costs as much as it does..and its a STEAL! I am not saying the Alpha Camaro doesn't have far better performance and interior than the F-body, obviously it does. I think a 2016 Camry interior is nicer than the Camaro still, but that is sort of besides the point. The alpha Camaro has a high level of performance, the SS doing 0-60 in around 4 seconds is really fast, it is C6 Corvette level performance. In that regard it is good value, but the price point has moved higher and higher too. My complaint of Camaro and Corvette is they are both getting more and more expensive. Probably by 2020 you won't even be able to get a Camaro for under $30,000, the 2017 model is near $28k base. I've always thought the Camaro should be an inexpensive sports car, because Chevy has the Corvette above it. And if GM wants to challenge the Euro super cars, that is what Cadillac is for. Chevy shouldn't be going after the Audi R8 or Porsche 911, or Ferrari California, etc. Chevy should be worried about Ford and Toyota and Hyundai. Let Cadillac worry about the Euro exotics or the Acura NSX. And look at the NSX pricing, $150-200k, that is where the mid-engine Corvette is headed. And as far as the Alpha Camaro beating anything Benz makes, please. Mercedes had a car with a 209 mph top speed 10 years ago. GM never made a car that fast. The AMG GT will stomp any Camaro with ease. If Chevy wants to take on Mercedes so badly, maybe they should make an Impala with a hand made luxury interior to take on Maybach. I think people would pay $125,000 for a super luxury Impala, that makes as much sense as a $125,000 Chevy sports car.
-
Again: erroneous. You are saying all Chevy models should be in a tight price range, why??? Because; Buick? Irrelevant. Not all Chevy's need to be in a tight range, but Chevy should be focused on value and building a fun sports car that regular people can afford. In year 2000, a Corvette had a price of $39,280 and not a huge options list to drive it into the stratosphere. The Cadillac Deville had a price of $39,895. Inflation at 2.15% since 2000 would mean $39k then is $55k now. So the Corvette base model has gone with inflation, but the higher trims push it way above where it was. A 2000 Cadillac SLS was $44,000, $5k more than a Corvette. Now a base Corvette is more than a Cadillac CT6. Cadillacs used to cost more than Corvettes.
-
When in the last 50 years has Cadillac had more HP than Chevrolet, never mind higher performance? 1965 : Cadillac ~ 340, Chevy ~ 375 1975 : Cadillac ~ 190, Chevy ~ 235 Gotta love these arbitrary mandates from out of nowhere... 1996 Corvette 300 hp 1996 Seville STS 300 hp
-
Because unlike Benz.. or BMW.. Cadillac is a part of a whole. It has sister brands that allow for its existence in teh same way that Audi exists within VW. If U don't think Cadillac brings massive profit to GM then U are a fool. They and U can paint the pic the way U want.. but in truth Cadillac has models that are platform sharing themselves into even more profits. The most blatant being the Escalade.. which I still have to convince some dullards is the same as the Tahoe/Subur/Yukon/YukonXL. The XTS and XT5/SRX are the others, and all are nice sellers. There is zero reason why their type of contribution should be cut loose as long as the core is RWD based models For sure Cadillac is making profit, but if the profits were so huge at Cadillac why aren't they making more Cadillac models? If the Cadillac division was making more profit than the Chevrolet division, wouldn't we be seeing like 2-3 new Cadillacs every year? Wouldn't there be 5 Cadillac crossovers, sports cars, hyper cars, the whole 9 yards. To use the Audi example, they are selling around 1.8 million cars a year, they easily make more dollars in profit than VW does selling 6 million cars.
-
If we jump back in time to 2002, the Camaro had a base price of $18,415 and the Z28 was $22,830 which got you the V8. Compare that to the 2002 Toyota Camry (the #1 selling family sedan then and now) a base Camry LE was $18,970 Camry XLE was $22,295, SE V6 23,700. So very similar prices of the Camaro and Camry which put the Camaro priced right against the family sedan segment. Thus it was very affordable. Jump ahead to 2016. Camaro 2.0T $25,700, SS $36,300 Camry LE $23,070, XLE $26,310 You used to be able to get a V8 Camaro for the price of a 4-cylinder Camry. Prices of V8s have gone up, but you can't even get a 4-cylinder Camaro for the price of a 4-cylinder Camry now. Camaro is now like a $30-50k car, while the Camry/Malibu/Fusion type cars are still $23-33k.
- 146 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- 2017
- 2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
- (and 4 more)
-
No need for a Corvette CUV, that would be a bad idea. Cadillac should be fighting the Porsche Macan and Cayenne, and BMW X5 M, and AMG crossovers. If you want to throw Tesla in the mix, Cadillac should be going after them too.
-
I don't think "Corvette" could be a brand, however I could get behind the idea of the Corvette moving to Cadillac. The interior would have to get better and some styling tweaks, but a V6 could be the base car with the better interior to keep price where it is, and add V8s and still have $60-100k price point, which makes sense for a Cadillac. I doubt they will do that, but the Corvette is becoming like the Nissan GT-R, who wants to pay $100k for a Nissan, wouldn't it be better as an Infiniti? Chevy should have affordable sports cars. The Malibu isn't $55k so why is a Camaro? This is why GM has brands, for value, middle and high end.
-
What is funny is the new Corvette is supposed to be a high revving DOHC V8 too. For years Corvette owners said the pushrod was better, the Ferrari style high revving V8 mid-engine cars were over priced or not as good. Now Corvette fans are getting their version of an Auri R8 or Ferrari 488 or McLaren 570.
-
VW lost like $2 million per car on every Veyron sold. The Chiron will lose money also, but they don't care it is basically a marketing piece for them. I am not opposed to GM making a money losing hyper car, but it shouldn't be a Corvette. I also don't think the Corvette needs more capabilty or speed. I go back to my Miata example, they hold the price at an affordable level. Back in the late 90s or 2000 a Corvette was about $40,000, and a Cadillac Seville or Deville was about that. Now the Cadillacs are like $46k, but the Corvette is $60k. They are losing the bang for the buck argument when they want to charge $70k for a Stingray or $100k for a Z06. I still think Corvette should be a $50-80k car, sort of in Porsche Boxster price range. I'd like to see a V6 Corvette to hold the price point to mid 2000s level. I also think there is room for a sports car above Corvette at GM, just at Cadilac.
-
The current Z06 gets ripped sometimes because it has too much power and can't get the power down or use it. Personally I don't think any Chevy needs more than 500 HP, maybe 550 for the range topping Camaro and Corvette. For performance above that there is Cadillac. Cadillac V-series should be the pinnacle of GM performance. I would go the other way with the Corvette and release a V6 model at $49,995. Even with the 335 HP V6 and 8-speed it would still be 0-60 in 5 seconds, the Corvette doesn't weigh that much, and it would probably be lighter and better handling than the V8 model. This makes the Corvette more attainable, which is what it is supposed to be. Really no Chevy should cost over $75,000 either, again Cadillac should have the $75,000 plus cars.
-
Fallacy argument as the Z06 (as well the last gen. ZR1) are $100K and GM had no problem selling them. A mid engine will not change that. What percentage of Corvette sales were ZR1? A mid-engine Corvette base model could be priced where the ZR1 was. A mid-engine ZR1 could be $200,000. Way too high for what is supposed to be the "affordable" sports car.
-
If Cadillac doesn't have sales volume, how do they justify making things like the Omega platform or Alfa platform or new engines, etc. It costs money to do all that, that is why Lincoln is a Ford badge job, because Lincoln doesn't have the volume to generate enough profit for Ford to give them their own platforms or engines. Cadillac's global sales are small, they rely on the USA, so if they can't grow here, they better find sales outside the USA.
- 35 replies
-
- 2
-
-
-
- July 2016
- Mercedes-Benz
- (and 3 more)
-
A mid-engine supercar should be a Cadillac. Why mess with the Corvette formula that has worked for 60 years. They also aren't going to draw in younger buyers with the price point of a mid-engine car. Look at the Alfa 4C, that is the cheapest mid-engine car on sale and it is about $65k with a 230 hp 4 cylinder. A mid-engine Corvette will be over $100,000 easy. Which is why it should be a Cadillac, Cadillac can support $100k pricing (or at least should be able to)
-
As I said originally, a 650 HP Camaro is awesome for Camaro and muscle car fans, just like Mopar fans love the Hellcat Charger. But when you push further and further up in performance you lose the mission of the original car. This is why the Miata doesn't have a V8 and cost $50,000. At that point it wouldn't be a Miata anymore. I actually think the ZL1 is a good thing for the Camaro brand image as long as they still have the $25-30,000 model that regular people can buy. But every month in the sales thread people question why Camaro sales are down and it is because they are pricing people out of it.
- 146 replies
-
- 2
-
-
- 2017
- 2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
- (and 4 more)
-
No. Because the Cadillac fans have a LT4 in the CTSV. Not only that.. The ATS-V is a car in and of itself. For your constant instigating questions I pose this.. f@#kin C63AMG or M3 fans have an issue that the ZL1 will have 200 more Hp than they? ATS and Camaro are closely related though, and while most ATS-v buyers probably don't care if it had 450 or 650 HP, there is the question of why any Camaro is more expensive than a V-series Cadillac, when Cadillac is GM's fop dog. They could put 1,000 hp in a Camaro and a BMW driver won't buy it because it says Chevy on it. But that goes back to my original point of Chevy being the value brand, having a value sports car, but they are moving away from that. The mid-engine Corvette I bet will cost over $125,000. How is that the every man's sports car, it will just turn into an Audi R8 which most Corvette fans think is a ripoff. I am all for a mid engine supercar at GM but it should wear a wreath and crest (yes bring the wreath back) and not a Chevy badge.
- 146 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- 2017
- 2017 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1
- (and 4 more)
-
My 2 cents on these cars is that if you keep pushing the price up you lose the target buyer audience and the car isn't what it was. The Camaro and Mustang of the 90s were priced like a family sedan almost. Now $30k is about the start point unless you get these cars in rental spec, and they are ranging up to $60k or more. Similar with the Corvette, it isn't as affordable as it used to be. For die hard Camaro fans, a 650 hp car will will be awesome, but do Cadillac fans feel upset that their ATS-V is giving up 200 hp to a Chevy? And I if the Camaro is now costing what a Corvette cost 10 years ago, is it still meeting the mission the Camaro? Camaro and Mustang don't really appeal to me, but with the cost of these cars, plus insurance, they are pricing out the under 30 demographic.
-
I think they combined it because it is the same chassis and wheelbase, but also since BMW combines 3 and 4 series, even though E-class is a different segment. I don't know why the combined it really, CLS sales aren't much, but they have other cars that only sell 250 a month. You can lease a rear drive 2016 E-class for $499 a month (36 months) and $5,300 down. A 2017 E300 4Matic ($55,575 MSRP) is $569 a month with $5,263 due. Not $329 a month. A Cadillac CT6 1SD package ($60k MSRP) lease is $579 for 39 months $4,719 due at signing. These are the advertised lease specials on the company websites, they are basically the same. To Sauv's point about raising prices, Mercedes is already the highest priced car in almost every segment they are in, no reason to go higher.
- 35 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- July 2016
- Mercedes-Benz
- (and 3 more)
-
So in this thread Mercedes was criticized for their sedan sales being down, and also criticized for selling too many E-class sedans!
-
The ATS, CTS, XTS and CT6 combined for 5,285 sales, the E-class has 5,225.
-
Year to date Mercedes has 102,301 car sales, which is 53.5% of their 191,300 total. I doubt any other luxury car maker has that much volume in cars or that high a percentage, except maybe BMW since they sell so many 3-series. Most luxury brands are SUV dependent, although Benz crossovers are the best also, so not surprising that they are all surging in sales.
-
All time high. Enjoy 2nd place BMW.
- 35 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- July 2016
- Mercedes-Benz
- (and 3 more)
-
Camaro I imagine appeals to a bit of an older male buyer, and the Camaro is hard to get in and out of and to see out of. So those are big drawbacks to a purchase. Even still, 60,000 a year is pretty good sales volume for a coupe that mostly is in the $30-40k range. Sedan sales are in the tank because people want crossovers. I think the government could impose a 10% tax on all crossovers and crossover sales won't go down, it is just what the people want. I don't like crossovers, the the buying public does. I guess the 2017 XTS will have get more fleet sales, the 2018 XTS will probably be fleet sale only and they can dump that model. XTS sales I think are below the DTS sales when they killed it, and the car market is stronger now than it was then.
-
The Compass platform is based on a Chrysler/Mitsubishi chassis, there is no Daimler in the Compass, even though Daimler did own Chrysler during it's development. The only Jeep that has Daimler in it is the Grand Cherokee ("the most awarded SUV ever"), as the 2011 Grand Cherokee and Mercedes ML had most of their development work done while they were still merged. Mercedes has a new chassis coming for the GLE/GLS in a year, Jeep has nothing because FCA is at the helm now, in 2025 the Grand Cherokee will still be using that 2011 ML chassis.
- 23 replies
-
- 1
-
-
- Chrysler 200
- Dodge Dart
- (and 3 more)
