smk4565

They already build the best luxury EV. The AMG ICE cars (and the plug in hybrids) are better performing around a track than EV's, so maybe they want to hold off on the AMG only EV's until they can get where the gas ones are. They need a more advanced battery and motor than what's available now, the axial flux motor won't be ready until 2025, likewise with the next-gen battery.

I saw the Taycan is back on top, still slower than their own Panamera Turbo S though. Mercedes is coming, I think it is interesting that the AMG EQE here is called an AMG 53 in Europe and that's the 670 hp version. So I wonder if there is a "63" coming or if they are just waiting til their 2nd gen battery comes in 2025ish because they have a performance EV architecture in the works and their F1 team has been doing work on the battery and motors. And maybe the the EQE and EQS AMG's are just what they are now, and they'll add a coupe and sedan on the performance car architecture that will basically be the AMG GT 4-door replacement and it would make more sense to make a new sports car rather than try to turn a luxury barge like the EQS into one, even the EQE is as big as a Lucid Air or Taycan. Hopefully Cadillac makes an EV that isn't an SUV, outside of the Celestiq. American car companies outside of Tesla hate sedans.

I guess my point is the cheap sports car segment will die with the EV switch. I suppose if you shrunk the Model 3 ( which is already smaller than a Mustang) down to Supra size and removed the rear seat then you could shed some weight and get under 3500 lbs. I don’t really care if the affordable sports car segment dies, I’d prefer a sensory deprivation air matic Mercedes over a Mustang or Supra that’s more raw and connected to the road.

The weight matters, the Model S Plaid has over double the horsepower of a Corvette, does a 9.2 second quarter mile compared to the Corvette's 11.2 and the Corvette would beat it on any track in the world that has more than 1 corner and 1 braking zone. So if you make horsepower equal, say a Model 3 Performance vs a Corvette, I don't care what suspension parts they put on a Model 3, it isn't beating a Corvette on a track. And if Hyundai is going to make the N 74 or Ioniq 6 N handle like a sports car, how expensive is the suspension and brakes going to be to make that happen? And how many buyers are out there for a $75,000 Hyundai performance sedan? I don't see many Sonata N's out there and those are like $34,000 and they are killing the Sonata after this generation is word on the street. And thank you all for the birthday wishes.

So you are saying a Kia EV6 GT is a better handling car than a Cadillac CT4 Blackwing? Model S Tesla handles better than an CT5 Blackwing?

Which proves my point that these "performance" EV's have trash handling, the M5 is the only one that looks like it belongs out there, the rest are mess in the handling department. I want to see someone do a performance EV that isn't just rip your face off acceleration, and is actually a good handling car. On an ICE car, like a Camaro, you can keep the same engine, and upgrade to the 1LE suspension, get the better brakes, etc. On EV's the performance upgrade is bigger battery, bigger motor, penalize handling more for straight line speed.

Correct that Tesla chose not to make the Plaid have the upgraded brakes, suspension, tires, weight reduction etc. And that's their choice, but I wouldn't claim the Plaid as peak engineering since they just basically just added 1 motor and cranked up the voltage compared to the standard model. Tesla could offer a performance or track package and I'm sure people would buy it. But to Tesla (and other EV's) performance is 0-60 and 1/4 mile time and it isn't all straight line. And the Plaid is faster than the Taycan and e-Tron GT around the track, but the Panamera is faster than the Taycan, the Audi RS3 is faster than the e-Tron GT, within the same brand the ICE cars are still faster because of EV weight. Which I get eventually the batteries will get lighter and resolve a lot of that problem. But we are talking high end cars with the Plaid and M5 CS. What about a $40,000 sports car? Or $50,000? You won't get a fun to drive sports car, just a heavy EV that goes in a straight line, because they don't care about brakes, handling, suspension, etc, at least Tesla doesn't. And the rest of these guys like to copy Tesla. Final example, 184" L x 74" W x 60" H at 4800 lbs 187" L x 71" W x 56" H at 3860 lbs Both close in size, both cost in the high $60s, the Kia will easily beat the Cadillac 0-60 and 1/4 mile. But I am guessing the Cadillac with 1,000 less pounds of weight is a much better to drive car. And this is the EV problem, if Cadillac makes and Electric CT4, then it's a 4800 lb car that will handle like a 7-series or S-class, and the only thing the CT4 is good at is gone.

The Plaid has 1,000 hp. If you took a 600 hp Tesla and a 600 hp BMW and put them on a track the results for the Tesla would be embarrassing. Which is my point with EV performance. And why I don't see an affordable EV sports car showing up any time soon, definitely not in the sub $45k like Camaro, Mustang, BRZ, Miata Civic Type R, Golf R, Nissan Z, etc whether you want muscle car, hot hatch or sports car. I don't see an EV coming to take the place, This N74/Ionic 6 N are more powerful than the Corvette (6.2 V8) and would likely cost the same as a Corvette and it would have no where near the performance of a Corvette. Now one is mid-size sedan, not a lot of comps for non-luxury performance sedans except a Charger Hellcat.

7:29 is faster than 7:35.5 of the Plaid.

According to the wikipedia list of Nurburgring times there are 89 cars faster than the Tesla Model S Plaid. Including this $59,000 (base MSRP) Audi which beat it by .05 seconds And to update my earlier post, the E63 is not longer the fastest wagon, in May 2022 the BMW M3 Touring beat it and is now the wagon record holder, and is also faster than the Plaid. So Tesla and the other EV's have work to do. And I like the idea of EV's, so I hope they can get the weight out and get the cost out and come up with some good stuff. The Ionic 5 N and Ionic 6 N are probably $70,000 cars, I think that's a lot for a Hyundai performance mid-size sedan or crossover. A Cadillac CT5V (not the Blackwing) started at $51k, might not be as fast in a straight line but probably overall on a track is, and the aforementioned Audi RS3 is $59k! Now if Hyundai builds that 74 concept for under $45k, goodnight 300Z, Supra and Mustang (Camaro is going goodnight regardless).

I first said the Taycan was the fastest EV around the Nurburgring, which it once was but the Plaid beat it. I brought up the AMG GT63 4-door and the M5, which are both faster than the Plaid, so is the Panamera. 3 sedans faster than the Plaid and the Plaid has 400 hp more. Proving my point that it doesn’t have the handling or braking.

Per the Tesla website, the base rear drive standard range Model 3 is 3,862 lbs, 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and 272 mile range. The 2022 Mercedes C300 is also around 3800 lbs, does 0-60 on 5.3 seconds per Car and Driver test. I wouldn’t really call the C300 a sports car either. I don’t see how Tesla takes 400 lbs out of a Model 3 without shrinking the battery and sacrificing range.

I'll pass on the carpeted dash and 90's bus fabric seats. Also not of fan of the center only screen with no instrument panel behind the steering wheel, wasn't a good idea on the Toyota Echo, I don't like it on the Tesla, don't like it here.

I like what Hyundai and Genesis are doing, and I like they they are getting into performance too. And I think you can compare EV to ICE. My point is with these performance EV’s is it is straight line only. You said Tesla can out perform other EV’s, but the Plaid’s lap time is slower than a Corvette that has half the horsepower. Put a 500 hp EV on a track against a 500 hp Corvette and see what happens. And this leads to the affordable sports car issue I brought up. A Miata, BRZ, GTI, Ecoboost Mustang are like $30k range, get into the 40s and the Supra and Z are there. I doubt there will ever be a 200-300 hp sub $40k EV sports car that weighs under 3500 lbs and is tossable in corners.

M5 CS is 7:29 on the Ring, so is the Porsche Panamera, both faster than Model S Plaid. I can't find a current E63 sedan time, the E63 wagon holds the wagon record at 7:45 and that was set in 2017. GT63S has the 4-door record still, and that's basically an E63. And these are cars that the Tesla has 400 hp on which further proves my point that it sucks in the corners. The Corvette has 50% the horsepower of a Model S Plaid and is quicker around the Nurburgring by a few seconds. There is no electric car that can handle as well as a good ICE car, it's just pure fact. I hope they fix that in the future. But until they do, you aren't going to see the "fun to drive" $40k (or less) EV. Maybe Hyundai will figure it out.

Well the Taycan had the record. The AMG GT63S is 7:23 though, beats the Plaid by 12 seconds. The Black Series is 6:43, over 52 seconds a lap faster. The Hummer might handle well for a 9,000 lb vehicle, but that's because it weighs double of a normal size SUV, so what do you compare it too. I am saying where is the EV that can handle with a Miata, BRZ, Corvette, Boxster/Cayman, etc. Car and Driver compared the AMG EQS to the Model S Plaid, stated the AMG is better but it isn't enough AMG. These EV's can blitz a quarter mile, but it is one trick pony performance, so I'd like to see the handling, breaking, weight cutting come into play, which over time with battery tech will eventually happen. I hope Hyundai makes the 74, but it's a $75k car or more if they put 577 hp in it, the Ioniq 6 N is probably a $75k car, that's getting to low end Corvette money. That's too much money for those. Right now $40k is the base Ioniq 5 with 168 hp that weighs 4,000 lbs, not exactly a Golf GTI or Civic Type R competitor for fun factor.

You brought up a lot of straight line performance, I already said EV’s kill it in a straight line. But they don’t in the corners. The Taycan ( the fastest one) is the Nurburgring EV record holder at 7:42. That’s 19 seconds slower than the AMG GT63 4-door which is similar size and price. The Taycan is 59 seconds behind an AMG Black Series or the aftermarket Mod 911 which are the all out sports cars. But my other point was on the more affordable side of sports cars. For $30-40k you can get a Miata, BRZ/GR86, GTI, WRX, Mustang, Camaro, etc. All 4-cylinder cars with some fun factor. There is no EV version of that, they can’t make a lower weight, fund handling car.

An M5 or E63 is still lighter than a Model S, and would beat a Model S on a race track. But my point more is with sports cars, like a 911 or Corvette or something. An EV Corvette or 911 with a 90 kWh battery would be like a 4500 lb car, I don't know if that is really keeping with the spirit of the sports car idea. No one is making an EV sports car or convertible right now, because I think they can't get the weight out and a 3800 lb Miata EV with 200 hp at $50k probably isn't going to sell. Stuff like Miata, Toyota 86, or even Supra or Nissan Z that maybe aren't all about straight line power and are about driving dynamics doesn't really exist in the EV world. Cadillac fans for a few years were saying how light weight the ATS and CTS were, the Lyric is 5600-5900 lbs.

The N Vision 74 is really cool, although they'd have to make it an EV, a fuel cell isn't going to sell since there is no hydrogen network. Hopefully they build both of those. Performance cars aren't dead, but all these EV performance cars are just 500-100 hp and fly in a straight line but weigh 5,000+ lbs so it isn't like they are going to handle like a Lotus in the corners.

Going all EV might be a better better strategy, not a for sure thing. But GM isn't really going all EV, they will still be making ICE cars until 2035. All in would be killing the gas Silverado in 2024 and selling only the EV model. But that isn't their plan, this 2.7 turbo 4 or the 6.2 V8 in the Silverado could still be on the market in 12 years. Who is going to want a 420 hp V8 in 2034? Unless part of this plan is to make the ICE cars look like crap so people buy the EV. Personally, I'd like to see all the whole car market go EV, but EV's are still too expensive for that to happen right now, and no one outside Tesla has manufacturing scale to do it.

Toyota isn't using the Prius system if they are using the Tundra's system in the Tacoma. The Tundra's hybrid system I think puts the electric motor attached to the transmission, I know it works differently than the Prius. Then Toyota has the 3rd system where the ICE engine powers the front wheels, and an electric motor powers the rear like in the Sienna and Highlander, but that obviously won't be used for a Tacoma. They need something for rear drive, which leaves the hybrid V6 form the Lexus LS or the hybrid twin turbo V6 from the Tundra, and I'd imagine they'd use the Tundra's. Going all in on EV might be the better strategy too, the faster you can convert the line over to EV, probably the better in the long run.

The new Tacoma is expected to offer a hybrid and a full EV. If they can be the segment sales leader with a truck that is old as dirt, then I think they could be pretty tough with the rumored engines, those being the Lexus turbo 4-cylinder and the Tundra's twin turbo V6 hybrid. I would assume the Ranger gets the Bronco powertrains and a Raptor version will happen, so Toyota will put the Tundra engine in the Tacoma to battle the Raptor.

The Silverado makes 310 hp and 420 lb-ft, the F150 430 hp and 570 lb-ft. + 120 hp, +150 lb-ft, + 5 mpg for the hybrid. Seems like more than a minimal gain, but I get GM doesn't want to spend money on anything ICE related, and just get the switch to EV as fast as possible, which is fine if they do the switch fast. If they plan on another 10-15 years of ICE, then might as well hybrid it.

"options" would be offering a hybrid too, could be a plug-in. The thing EV trucks are bad at are towing, because it zaps the range. So something like a hybrid F150 could tow long distance, and still have their pro-power onboard thing that lets you power a job site or camp site or whatever electric tools or camping stuff you want to plug in.

So just make the high output version. A hybrid would be a better 3rd option since Ford has the Maverick and F150 hybrids and I assume will do a Ranger hybrid.