smk4565

Adaptive Air Suspension: Active Rear Steering: Magnetic Ride Control 4.0: Advanced AWD: Active Roll Control: Active Rear Spoiler: Ride-focused tires: Electric Power Steering: 5-link front and rear suspension: All of this stuff already exists on other cars and most of it has been around a while. They basically took Rolls-Royce's starry night headliner idea and put the lights into the glass which is a neat party piece, but the ability to block out sun or let light in Maybach did in 2004, Mercedes still has it today. Mercedes rear wheel steer is 10 degrees, not 3.5. And you can't open the roof, why is it fixed glass and not a sunroof? 600 hp is nothing new, pretty standard for this segment, which again, I think is fine, people buying these massive sedans aren't drag racing them or taking them to a track, so as long as they have smooth acceleration that is all that matters. The range is fine too, they won't lose a single buyer because the range is 300 not 350. Their whole presentation was based on the "hand built" "custom design" "world class craftsmanship" "luxurious textures and finishes" "Standard of the World" and they filled up the buzzword bingo card but Cadillac hasn't been about any of those things in 60-70 years. Cadillac themselves referenced what they were 100 years ago is what they are shooting for. Why should we believe if you haven't done it in 70 years, all of a sudden you got it right? But if Cadillac can find 400 people a year that want to spend $350k on this car, more power to them.

The engird business could be huge, and America could be an exporter of energy. If you think of the money made by oil companies now, the money made by the Middle East and Russia on oil, all of that money could go to electricity production. Aside from petroleum is still used in other products, I get that, but if you start powering 10, 20, 50, 500 million cars a year on electricity around the globe it is huge money.

The problem with your comparison is the C-class and GLC size Toyotas are the Corolla and Rav4, which neither of have a base price of $44,000. By your logic, Cadillac, Acura, Lincoln, Acura, Volvo, Genesis, Lexus, BMW, Infiniti are all mass market brands, because they all sell cars under $40,000. And the GLE is #2 seller, more than doubling the C-class this year, but the C-class also just had a new model out, I think early in the year not many were available as the ran out the old model inventory and waited for the new one. Mercedes has 6 model lines with base price over $100,000 (not counting AMG One), all of the Asian and American car companies have a combined 1, the Acura NSX. If you want to talk about who makes high end cars and who doesn't.

I forgot the Lyriq so 5 of 7. I posted Mercedes sales chart, they aren’t relying on A and B class level cars for volume, as the chart shows the S-class, SL, GT, GLS, G-class and EQS all of which start over $100k except GLS, outsell the GLA/B and A/CLA. They are literally making 4 times more revenue on the range toppers than they are on the entry level.

C-class starts at $43,550 before destination. Every luxury brand sells cars under $50k. Not sure how the CLA can be a total failure and at the same time “the bulk of their sales” and “how Mercedes makes all their money”

I think the switch to EV will be more like a tidal wave rather than a slow transition. Come 2025 when batteries and infrastructure are better, and there are more options I think EV sales go up fast. I also think GM is position to capitalize big time because they will have product variety in segments and price points people know. If Equinox EV starts at $33k that is the average small crossover price, the VW iD4 is $43k, swing and a miss. If GM gets it right they could be a force.

5 of 6 Cadillacs and every Acura but the NSX start under $50k. The GLC starts at about $45k. Mercedes themselves sees their brand in 3 segments, I forgot the names but entry are the front drive platform A-B classes, Core is the C and E classes and top group is anything with a S, G-Class, GT. Obviously the bulk of the sales come from the middle. The notion that Mercedes relies on low end cars to make money is false when the S-class outsells the A-class and CLA and costs 4 times more. The S makes 4 times more revenue than the front drive cars.

Full size crossover/SUV is $72,000. Compact crossover is $33,000 and that is the #1 selling segment by far.

And who is a dedicated luxury brand? Bentley and Rolls-Royce? Also Mercedes having a full line is smart business, they can compete with Acura and Volvo at one end and Bentley and Porsche at the other.

Cater to sub $50k, how so? Here is their sales chart, the S-class is outselling A-class and CLA combined this year. The GLS is outselling the GLB. Their 2 best sellers are GLC and GLE. And a GLC300 4Matic starts at $46k before destination, so with 1 option package those are basically all $50k or more.

I don’t know how “accessible” the S-class is when the base model is over $110,000 and the Maybach is $200,000+. I would guess that 95% of Americans can’t afford a $140,000 car. Which sort of goes to my original point, Mercedes has a customer base that will spend $140k on a sedan or $200k on a G-wagon. So they can make these expensive EV’s and not have a problem. Their challenge will be can they make an A class level EV that isn’t E-class pricing. I brought up the Hyundai/Kia because their small crossover EV’s are like $50k and the Sportage and Tucson are like $30k. If Hyundai kills off their ICE cars that’s a big leap for their customer base to take.

I said full size luxury car, of which the EQS is the #2 seller. It does tremendous volume for the segment it is in. And I am comparing ICE and EV because a sale is a sale. If Toyota sells 10 million cars a year and Rivian sells 50,000, I don’t want to hear about how Rivian is beating Toyota because they sold more EV’s this year. The EQE is about 1-2 inches shorter than a Model S, the EQS is like 10 inches longer. The EQE is Mercedes’ Model S competitor, the EQC sedan will be the Model 3 competitor when it gets here.

Q3 Mercedes sales are out for YTD: S-class 11,376 EQS sedan 5,749 BMW 7-Series 3,905 Lexus LS 1,989 Audi A8 1,025 Genesis G90 786 I’d say the EQS is doing just fine, it’s beating Lexus, Genesis and Audi combined.

Full size luxury car I said. That would be the S-class, EQS, 7-series, A8, Lexus LS, Jaguar XJ (which I think is discontinued now), Genesis G90, maybe you could throw the Panamera in there, but that isn't really a full size car. The Taycan and Model S are not full size cars. Bentley Flying Spur and Rolls Royces obviously are full size too.

You are trying to compare a mass market company vs a luxury brand that does less volume. The EQS outsold the Genesis G90, the BMW 7-Series, Audi A8, Lexus LS in the first half the of the year, their Q3 numbers aren't released yet, as I just checked. The EQS is doing well if it is beating its gasoline counterparts. Also I am looking more 5 years out. In 5 years time if an Ioniq 5 is $10k more than an Equinox EV how does that work for Hyundai? The bulk of Hyundai's customers buy Elantras and Tucsons that are sub $30,000.

I doesn’t matter how good the Ioniq 5 is if they can’t produce them. Same goes for Rivian and Lucid, if you can’t build the cars you can’t make money. The EQS is the #2 selling large luxury car ICE or gas, only because Mercedes also makes the #1 selling large luxury sedan. The Ioniq 5 is not the #2 selling small crossover. Mercedes, Porsche, Audi and GM are marketing EVs to current prices in their brands. I think this group has it right and the others we’ll see where they are in 2030.

Chevrolet doesn't really sell a $100k SUV, but Hyundai can sell whatever they want. Anyone can sell $100k cars but there isn't any volume there, customers can barely afford cars now. The Ioniq 5 doesn't have volume, making higher priced Hyundais and Kias isn't a path to growth. Mercedes is doing just fine, through Q2 the EQS was the #2 selling large luxury car only behind the S-class the Q3 numbers aren't out yet. And they'll have EQE sedan and SUV in the next few months hitting dealers. Assuming they they price parity (or at least close) with the next gen batteries coming in the 2025 time frame they'll basically be able to merge into all EV by 2030 for C-class and up at least. Because the current S-class runs through 2027 model year, the C-class through 2028 and next E-class 2024-2030. Sort of lines up perfectly to make each generation the last ICE and make the replacement generation EV. And they arrive at 2030 with the same lineup they have today at the same price points and market segments as today, just electric and not ICE. And Mercedes doesn't make trucks, they make luxury vehicles, they aren't trying to compete with Toyota or GM. And I would say that Tesla doesn't make luxury cars either. Hyundai/Kia are not doing this, they are adding EV's in segments they aren't in, not preparing to convert Tucson, Santa Fe and Palisade to electric, that might not be 15-20 years depending on how fast this EV switch happens, which personally I think once battery cost drops and supply goes up, I think flood gates open and the switch to EV goes fast.

But the Telluride is 2 size classes bigger than an EV6. When the EV9 or whatever their 3 row SUV is, what will that cost? $75,000? I have a hard time believing there is demand for $75,000 Hyundai and Kia SUVs. Now if they can slash the price of their EV's then different story. But that Ioniq 6 is their Sonata replacement, but it is going to cost $20,000 more than a Sonata. I don't see how they get someone trading in their Sonata to all of a sudden pay $20k more to guy a new car, and I don't see people that drive a BMW 5-Series saying, I think I'll spend 5-series money on a Hyundai. I get that Hyundai has been on a roll with good products the past 10 years. But I think they are getting the benefit of the doubt. If GM said their EV plan was an Equinox EV in the $40-60k range, an EV Malibu in the $50-70k range and an EV Traverse for $75-90k (all with no tax credits and limited availability) and they are going to kill off all their ICE cars, people would say Chevrolet is doomed.

A Genesis GV60 starts at $59,290 has 314 hp, 248 mile range while the GLB350 starts at $58,050, has 288 hp and 227 mile range, but is larger and offers a 3rd row and has a Mercedes interior, not a Hyundai Ioniq 5 interior with quilted leather seats. I don't think they are that off base with $60k for an EQB, although I wish it looked more like the GLB's front end and headlights since those look better, and it should have another 25-30 miles of range at that price.

The 2023 Telluride starts at $36k though, loaded up they can go over $50k. But the EV6 is $6k more than a Telluride and sized like a Sportage. YTD Kia has sold 17,000 EV6, 90,000 Sportage and 72,000 Telluride. Tesla has sold 163,000 Model Y. And the EV6 had a tax credit until last month, now that it's gone I could see sales of it dropping. I don't see Kia becoming majority EV by 2030 as they say they want to be, partly due to the slow take rate on the current EV, secondly the EV6 doesn't fit their line up. Do they make EV5, EV6, EV7 and kill off well known products like Sportage, Sorrento and Telluride? For as much as a roll as Hyundai Kia were on in the 2011-2021 time frame, I could see that progress stalling or falling back in the 2022-2032 decade.

None of what Hyundai and Kia are bringing to market matter if they aren't Hyundai and Kia prices and they don't do Hyundai and Kia volume. The Ioniq 5 has declining sales right now, they are getting outsold 10 to 1 by the Tesla Model Y. And what is an Ioniq 7 going to cost? $50-70k? Cadillac Lyriq money for a Hyundai of the same size? The Equinox is about the size of an Ioniq 5 and will be $10k cheaper plus get a tax credit. I don't see how Hyundai wins that battle.

This is sort of yawn styling, but if priced on par with a Blazer, it will outsell the Blazer.

You don't really need 800V, most chargers don't go that fast and if you are charing a home, you are talking like 10 kWh charge rates, so then it really doesn't matter. Going 400 vs 800 can save on cost and cooling needs, etc. The big problem with EV's (other than production constraints) is if you look at a generic ICE small crossover they go 0-60 in about 8 seconds, have 300-400 mile range, cost $30-35k. And car companies sell millions of these per year. Then when they get to EV's they think it needs 500 hp and a sub 4-second 0-60 time and costs $70,000. Ford would never in a million years put a 500 hp V8 in an Escape and charge $70,000 for it because they know no one would buy it. But when it comes time for an EV crossover, throw 500 hp in it and change $65,000. I think Mercedes and GM are the only 2 that have it figured out, mirror your ICE line with IV's because then you are marketing to your current customer base and your potential cross shops.

If they could get the EQB produced in the USA to get the tax credit, all of a sudden that looks like a pretty temping vehicle, because the GLB is a strong seller and is pretty well received, but you can get one for $10-15k less than n EQB, I didn't look to see how the options and equipment line up to compare the 2 exactly. But with a tax credit, to get the EQB under $50k, that's a pretty good deal, when you look at something like a Toyota BZ4X is near $50k in the all wheel drive XLE trim.

Fletcher Jones Mercedes in San Diego has the EQB in stock, 39 EV's on the lot or in transit out of there 500 cars in stock. Bobby Rahal Mercedes has 4 EQS SUV's in stock, so if you want one you can get it today, no waiting 6 months for your Tesla to show up. I think this is how traditional OEM's beat Tesla, the ability to buy it today (or custom order if you want). Although nothing Tesla makes has the luxury of a Mercedes, even the EQE blows away the Model S/X interior and you get a real steering wheel.