Flybrian

One more time...chat!

I believe so, but I was referring to it in relation to other midsize SUVs.

Re-TAH-ded.

There's a difference between anticipating market changes and pioneering a different technology. Toronado pioneered modern FWD, so its original purpose was that FWD drivetrain. The rest existed for 10-20 years before a switchover to FWD. And Sixty, if you don't care if the Toronado is FWD or RWD, why would you care if any other former RWD car is FWD or not, because the crux of much of your arguments have been 'authenticity.'

Likely not, namely because A) the segment won't be abandoned, mainly scaled back, B) the real good ones will still remain (Pathfinder, Explorer, Trailblazer, JGC), and C) look at all the ones we have lost - Montero, Montero Sport, Trooper, Rodeo, QX4 - does anyone even care?

If you have no problem with a rear-wheel drive Toronado, then I don't see why you have a problem with today's front-wheel drive Monte Carlo. If anything, a rear-wheel drive Toronado would be more of a travesty because FWD was its biggest, most lauded feature while RWD was simply how things were done then, not 'special' in that sense. Yeah, but a Hyundai Pony? A crop of $h!box Datsuns? And a Nash?! C'mon. These are likely the worst examples anyone can use because drivetrain configuration notwithstanding, no one wants junk like that anymore. Incidently, Ponies and those Datsuns were replaced by FWD models that sold even better. Better off to use performance and handling to sell RWD rather than "well, it was done then, you pussies."

Additionally, Croc, Sixty is right on one account - only the Toronado debuted with front-wheel drive. All GM's other personal coupes of the time (Monte Carlo, Grand Prix, Riviera, and Eldorado) were rear-wheel drive until the 1970s/80s/90s, whatever the case may be. Also, Sixty, in no way would a front-wheel drive Toronado be "weird" or "wrong." If it were rear-wheel drive, it would not be a Toronado.

Still, clearly years (at least) ahead of anything anyone else was making. Ford stuck a crapload of lead-acid batteries in the bed of a Ranger for their electric car. Chrysler loaded up a minivan with the same.

How many of those piece of $h! cars even exist?

Hope they have lambada classes there.

Yes.

There are gay people here on C&G? Ewwwwww!

Can the Toronto PD come to my house and do something about the Smokey And The Bandit reject Firebird that does half-ass burnouts at 2am in front of my house? Think I'll get some wood tacks from Lowe's today...

I've noticed that, too, BigPontiac. Rams are harder to get into and seem to sit higher for no particular reason. My father, a pickup fan, agrees that the 2wd Ram we had for a rental suffered from that and - as he put it - "If you can't lean on the side comfortably, what good is it?"

Can you imagine a turbo I6 churning out 300+hp/tq in a Colorado SS std cab shortbed? Or likewise in a GMC Typhoon? Or a 270hp fixed hardtop SSR without the pickup bed cover but with cloth seats and a 6-speed for $26/7k? GM would've had to stop production to find a plant with higher capacity.

One thing I will straight away give the 360s is the awesome Atlas I6 engine.

Heh. You said the Aveo was a disgrace, which is what I was trying to quote. Don't worry, I agree. Its sad because its arguably the best subcompact on the market except for its fuel efficiency, which is alot like saying the Cadillac So-and-So is the best luxury car on the market except you can't get leather seats, a V8, or a CD player.

Yes, going to test a Mercedes on the Autobahn, a BMW in the Black Forest, or a Volvo is Scandanavia is a bit more exotic than taking a spin around Janesville, Oshawa, or Orion Township.

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Welcome to the Choppin' Competition #21 Voting thread! Remember, artists who entered must vote for someone other than themselves. Those that do not vote or vote for themselves will be asessed a two (2) point penalty. Voters, please nominate three (3) entries in this format: 1st place 2nd place 3rd place Each first place vote earns 3 points, each second place vote 2 points, and each third place vote 1 point. Voting begins now and will end Friday, June 23, 2006 @ 11:59PM. Only those votes cast during that time will be counted. Remember, the 1st place winner will recieve a special Pontiac-related prize from Cheers and Gears! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 VOTE----------------VOTE----VOTEVOTE----VOTEVOTEVOTE--VOTEVOTEVOTE-- -VOTE--------------VOTE---VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTEVOTEVOTE--- --VOTE------------VOTE----VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTE---------------- ---VOTE----------VOTE-----VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTE---------------- ----VOTE--------VOTE------VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTEVOTEVOTE---- -----VOTE------VOTE-------VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTEVOTEVOTE---- ------VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTE---------------- -------VOTE--VOTE---------VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTE---------------- --------VOTEVOTE----------VOTE----VOTE--------VOTE--------VOTEVOTEVOTE--- -----------VOTE----------------VOTEVOTE----------VOTE---------VOTEVOTEVOTE-- Good luck to all who entered!

I believe he was reffering to the '06s and so was I. Now, they need to give the IS some non-Dumbo rearviews.

The secretary sportsters with 3800 V6s, antenna toppers, and cute seat covers? You bet your sweet bippy. The G6 is more their style anyway.

Link to full article @ Forbes.com Teflon Toyota Joann Muller and Jonathan Fahey 07.03.06 Consumers don't seem bothered by a rash of recalls. Here's a quiz: a carmaker last month recalled 1 million vehicles worldwide. In 2005 it recalled 2.2 million vehicles in the U.S., 10% of its total number of cars on the road here and twice the number it recalled the year before. Who is this bumbling manufacturer? No, not General Motors (nyse: GM - news - people ), but Toyota (nyse: TM - news - people ), whose vehicles jump off the lot because consumers swear by their quality. Just a few weeks ago Toyota again dominated consumer polls in the annual J.D. Power & Associates initial quality study. Why this disconnect? The answer says something about the nature of recalls and how Toyota handles them. For one thing, the spike in recalls stems from Toyota's own efficiency. Rather than reengineering parts, it shares components among many models. So when something goes wrong, as it did recently with the steering shaft on the Prius and ten other (non-U.S.) models, the recall number is high. Toyota, moreover, has perfected the art of detecting and fixing quality problems early, often before customers even notice them. "What we tend to see is that if a customer receives a recall notice before their car exhibits any symptoms, they don't see it as a problem," says Chance Parker of J.D. Power. It counts as a recall, for sure, but the Power surveys are gauging consumers' level of satisfaction. And Toyota knows how to keep customers satisfied. It gives its dealers plenty of leeway to fix customer complaints even postwarranty--by some accounts as much as $3,000 per vehicle. Despite the headlines, it's not clear that Toyota's recall numbers are any worse than those of the other carmakers. The amount it spends making good on warranties is 1.2% of revenues versus 2.4% for GM and 2.3% for Ford (nyse: F - news - people ). Last year when Toyota had 12 recalls, covering 2.2 million vehicles in the U.S., GM had 30, covering 5.1 million, and Ford had 17, covering 6 million ( see story, p. 102). No question that Toyota's remarkable growth has hit some bumps. Consumer Reports dropped the reliability rating on its newly redesigned Avalon from "much better than average" to "average." Even Toyota management wonders whether it has the bench to guide its growth. But for now quality doesn't seem to be an issue.

Link to full article @ Reuters Protests to hit GM plants in Germany, Spain: source June 16, 2006 FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Workers angered by General Motors' <GM.N> plan to shut down an assembly plant in Portugal will stage protests starting next week at GM factories in Germany and Spain, a labor source told Reuters on Friday. "There will be enormous disruptions to production. This could hurt GM," the source said, asking not to be named before a formal announcement on Monday about the industrial action. He said work stoppages could even jeopardize the launch later this year of the key Opel Corsa subcompact model, which the world's biggest carmaker is counting on to boost sales and income. Workers at the Azambuja assembly plant in Portugal walked out again on Friday to vent their fury over the carmaker's intention to close their factory. GM says building Combo delivery vans there costs 500 euros ($633) more per vehicle than at other potential manufacturing sites and told workers on Wednesday it was closing the plant and shifting production to Zaragoza in Spain. It later suspended the decision at the request of the Portuguese government to give workers one last chance to propose efficiency steps, but GM has stressed how difficult it will be to close a productivity gap of that size. Labour leaders accuse GM of plucking the 500 euro number from thin air to justify closing the plant as part of a campaign to scale back manufacturing in western Europe and move eastward, where costs are far lower. The plant about 50 km (30 miles) northeast of Lisbon employs around 1,100 staff. For Portugal, western Europe's poorest country, losing the factory would be yet another blow in an economy that has been near the bottom of European growth leagues for years. ------------------------------------ Seems like the US isn't the only place were labor relations are going south...

Oldsmobile sold more V8s in the 2002 model year than Rolls-Royce and Bentley combined. Meaning...nothing. Yes, its a good thing, but the statement is a bit hollow for the reasons Variance mentioned. Remeniscent of the 'More interior volume than a 760i' line for the Azera. A 1998 LeSabre also has more 'interior volume' than a 760i.