91z4me

No I don't want to put you out of work.So I say you are being nit picky and you insult me? Do you disagree that GM won what they say they won? If not then you just made my point for me.

So do like EVERYONE else does and have a good 160-200 hp 4 cylinder out for gas savings and offer some real power for those who want to pay for it. It is called options man and it is what makes this country great.

It doesn't matter if a car wins more than 1 category. It doesn't matter how many competitors there were. A win is a win. If someone doesn't see that they need to pull their head out of their but long enough to open their eyes.

No they wouldn't the C pillar is all messed up the way the door cuts it apart. The interior is nice but the c pillar and oversized headlights look pretty poorly done, especially after some of the spy photos we have seen of the Avenger. I was expecting a lot better. Also why only 232 hp? My 97 MC has 215 and it is almost 10 years old.

It was a 13.6L OHV VVT DOD V16 90 degree block. It had a single intake manifold, which must have been huge. You could say it was 2 6.8L V8s, which I think was the rumored displacement of the C6 Z06 engine, but that got changed as we all know. The XV12 was a 750 hp DOHC V12 that was N* based if I remember right it was 7.5L It also had DOD, a pretty cool concept on a DOHC engine. Also remember the 4.3L XV8 a 75 degree V8 that was DI, VVT, Twin cam in block, and 3 valve headed. That engine sounds really, really cool.

What MY is the Grand Prix MCE?

Did anyone notice the wires hanging out on the front bumper? Would those be for block heater for the diesel possibly, testing for Europe?

When do we get to see the Avenger?

Just come to the Arch and you will find me. :AH-HA_wink:

I am guessing you mean Kudos so usre kudos to Buick for the hot air induction non fuel injected Buick T-Types before they were painted black and called GNs. j/k In reality great cars for the times.

I missed 1 freakin' engine so sue me. balthazar we aren't going to agree so lets just drop it OK?

Right but I am talking about the 'homeroom' design and engineering theory. Like how Holden, also a part of GM, is the RWD homeroom.

Are you out lurking in hiding to catch it yet?

So your telling me that engineering tests and results from 30+ years ago are just as important and as acurate as those from 5 years ago with all the advancements in technology? Nope GMNA powertrain engineers are the masters of OHV engines. Their OHC larger V6s are quite good BUT the 4 cylinders are better left to those with more experience and modern data, engineering practices for those particular designs, GME and Daewoo. Sorry but engineering data and results from decades ago in turbo technology do NOT equal modern engineering experience and data! No I don't need to include it because while there are some similarities they are different technologies. Superchargers are linear in their power delivery due to design. Turbos are not linear in design they are more of an exponetial or logrithmic air flow curve. And since you didn't know that I am sure that you didn't know that GM's superchargers are designed, engineered, and built in conjunction with outside vendors (with more experience) in supercharges! Actually I sort of explained part of GM's supercharger experience above but lets remember that the bulk of GMs roots supercharger experience is rooted in the old Detroit Diesels, which GM owned at the time. Really besides the L67, gen I, II, and III and the new supercharged N* GM hasn't made many modern supercharged engines. Also when you look at the modern turbo history, with the exception of SAABs, there were outside vendors involved in almost all of it. The GNX had modifications done but (PAS I think), the TTA used PAS, the Grand Prix Turbo from 1989-1991 were McClaren built and installed, the Turbo Sunbirds were GM Brazil engines not GMNA.The Duramax is a Izusu/GM joint venture so you really can't say that is all GM, it would be like saying the Cummins diesel in the Ram is a Dodge when it really isn't. So where is all of GM's turbo experience after 1985?

I voted NO but it really depends on the story. I am a man of 1 science and 2 faith. I know biology and chemistry pretty well. I also have a fair understanding of physics. I can explain most magic tricks after seeing them the first time. If I don't get them the 1st time I do get them the 2nd. I don't believe that Aliens from a distant planet are abducting people just to stick stuff in their bunghole. I know it would take MILLIONS of years at the speed of light for ANY thing of any mass to make it to Earth. For something to travel for Millions of years AND have life on it it must basically be a traveling civilization AND have the capability of providing food for those inhabitants. Not to mention the logistics of the psycological size of this. A person who didn't grow up with a planet would not have a complete concept of it, much less a being a few thousands of generations removed! Now there are things out there that just CANNOT be explained using the knowledge we currently have but hey people thought that rivers flowed from the sea to the mountains at one point in time! Having said this I can say that I do believe in some things but not most. My line in the sand is how many teeth the people have that tell the story. If it is less than 15 teeth in the mouth then they likely cannot be trusted.* *This part was a joke but most people can judge the stories correctly based on their gut instincts.

SAAB builds some of the best Turbo engines in the world and you are saying they brought NO tech to GM? So you are saying that the 2.3T 4 cylinder that dates back to the 80s and still in production and making 260 hp is not high tech? The 2.0T DI Ecotec is just now making 260 hp and has a lot of new stuff compared to the old design SAAB 2.3. But your right SAAB is NOTHING they have NO tech of their own. Their talent for interior and exterior design, turbo expertise, and safety engineers weren't distributed through GMEurope's studios at all. They are and were nothing because only GMNA matters and designs everything. Perhaps thegriffon should come in here and educate you a little about what value SAAB has.

How many turbo models did GM NA have since 1992, prior to SAAB becoming theirs? Remember that engineers are not around forever.

The Atlas 4 and 5 were new in the GMT355s and they have been bumped up in power and displacement they aren't lagging in anything. The 4 cylinder is the most powerful in a truck on the market!

I bet new thetas and a new SUV based on the new Izusu/GM platform. Like Charlie said on Cz28 I expect GMNA will design the SUVs. Hopefully we get 3 rows of seats outta the next 355s like the Izusu UV7 has.

They likely provided key technology and turbo experience for the 2.0 T DI Ecotec, helped engineer Epsilon to the highest safety standards. They also helped with the development of the 2.8 T V6 that powers the 9-3, Caddy BLS, and other Euro caddies. SAAB is something to keep around (even if only in Europe where it sells quite well.)

I am ok with that as long as people know that moot means it doesn't matter and that mute means no volume.

MOOT not mute!

You do realize that the 5.7L Holden Monaro, which was down on power to the GTO was roughtly $50K and we got the GTO for $33K. Currency rate had NO effect on sales. The higher AUS dollar that we have now will make the sale of Holdens in the states less profitable but it will still be profitable if it is a volume model at Holden, AKA Statesman or Commodore, rather than a VERY low volume car like the Monaro was, originally expect to sell only 5K copies over 3 years! GM needed a placeholder in the RWD lineup and the Monaro was given VERY minor changes and brought here as fast as possible. Complaints should be made to the board of the 90s who stopped Oldsmobile from bringing in Holden cars to the US and starting the trend back to RWD sooner. The Sport Appearance Package was a dealer installed option that ANYONE! could buy for less than $2500 that gave a much more aggressive look. The reason it couldn't be done at the factory is that all the years GTOs were made during a 2 week run at the factory, which had to bring in extra shift people just to get the cars made without impacting the Australian cars and exports to the Mid East.

To skew a biblical quote is pretty bad form.

It could be to replace the commercial Izusu trucks.If it is to replace the GMT355 trucks then it could be built in Thailand and imported to the US if the truck tarriff gets dumped.