91z4me

Did the dog make a mess and the owner say "Hey I want a car that looks worse than that!"?

I see a lot of the Euro Civic in those pics.

In the land of the blind the man with one eye is king, that does not mean he sees all. You calling us blind is the biggest over-the-top statement EVER! You do know, God I hope you do, that GM is not a retail company. GM is an engineering, design, production, and trasportation company and a Global one at that. To tell the truth they shouldn't ever have to worry about advertising product or running national promotions. Regional dealer bodies and individual dealerships should take care of that but because GM has had contracts with these dealerships for so long they are under the pressure of their past contracts to do this. They should not be the ones running sales and offering rebates the freaking dealers should be the ones doing that! But they can't look far enough ahead to see past their NOSE! No they get a brand new exciting model, ala GTO and Solstice, that are unique and what do they do they throw down "Market Adjustments" and "Limited Inventory Adjustments" to squeeze every dime they can out of the hot models instead of capitalizing on the increased foot traffic and good press they bring to the Brand as a whole! Not only do the dealers have the inability to price their models are reasonable levels, like say MSRP, but they also contribute negatively to the perception of GM and its brands with crapola add ons like "$75 Paint protectant", "$150 Carpet protectant", Finder's Fees, and a host of other no good for the customer ways to squeeze more cash from the customer. For one Millions of jobs, a total recession of the country as well as a crash of Ford and Chrysler group. GM going under is ALWAYS possible if extreme measures are taken. Especially when those who don't understand the scale of GM, the various issues faced by a company of its size, and lets not forget the legacy costs. You have been criticized not just by the public at larger but also by professional auto industry anaylsts. Experts who forcast model sales, production rates, and advize investors as to when is the right time to invest in a particular stock. These people understand more about GM than you EVER will because their opinions aren't clouded by past experience at the store level for a long time. Ok lets say that your marketing only approach would work. Who would impliment it? Who would foot the bill? What is the best audience to present this to? Instead of pitching it for the what 3rd year to GM and the board why not try an audience who is more likely to listen and respect you, one which I have repeatedly told you to address, one who could ACTUALLY impliment this plan, and one who wouldn't break the law in doing it: THE REGIONAL OR NATIONAL DEALERSHIP BODIES!!! NOT GM, not Rick Wagner, not anyone inside or associated with GM corprate. That is who your audience should have been this whole time! You have been trying to snowball people that you can't snowball. You have been trying to tell them how to do their job when it is something you know NOTHING about! And how many thousands are against the plan? How many enthusiest websites have you been booted from? What is their member numbers? How many replies did you get from people who refuted your plan? How many members ignored you because they saw how rediculous your plan was and how well others had taken up the argument and said "I am not even going to waste my time."? Maybe you should consider that they have a valid reason for not listening to you. When you talk to a customer about a car and you have presented your arguments about why a car fits their needs and you have said your peace and they don't say yes what is your next step? If you treat them anything like you do GM corprate it likely is a string of crazy poems or personal attacks against their character. That is NOT how you do business. It is NOT how you operate in business. You SHOULD know better than that. Wagner and his team have cut plants that weren't making profit, cut model lines out that weren't making profit. They have reduced overhead by gettting union concessions that past management would drop their jaw at. They are not only reducing costs but utilizing more company resources, developing new product, and setting the company up to be more profitable. I want you to stop reading this right now and walk out into your showroom. I want you to sit in a Lucerne then should you have a Park Ave or Lesabre close by I want you to walk over to that car and sit in it. Take a close look at the materials. Take a good hard look at all the switches, the HVAC controls, the new radio, steering wheel. Feel the dash and door panels. Push yourself into the seat. In general take time to really, really get to know the car. Something that I know a lot of sales people really don't have the time to do. Now that you have done that which direction is the one to go? Lower the price and load the new car with value so that customers really feel like they are being taken care of OR continue an old outdated model that while nice is only nice when you get thousands off in rebates? So your dealer doesn't make quite as much off of this new model, and hey maybe you don't sell as many of this new model. BUT you are building something, something that Buick hasn't had for well decades: Customer rapport, customer trust, and your building equity back into the Buick name. Something that has not happened for a really long time. Jim, I want you to do well, I really honestly do. But the way you are going about things, with malice to Rick and by making stupid poems, is not going to win you ANY respect. If you want respect then you are going to just have to suck it up that they didn't go for your Plan. You need to move on, that ship has sailed it will NEVER be adopted by GM now or in the future. It is kind a like Cuba do we really need to have an embargo against Cuba? Has it done ANY good in the last 40 years? Has Castro been thrown out of power? NO. You will never turn the board to your side it just won't happen based on your conduct and contempt for them over the last few years. You need to just move on and let it go. Serioulsy dude you need to move on.

Jim if you want anyone on this board to have ANY respect for you then you need to address O.C.'s reply to your 1st 20 points. Otherwise you will just be a troll in our eyes and sooner or later a banning will occur, just like it did on CZ28.

I vote for this one.Seriously Jim is getting OLD!

6 years during the early 90s when Buick had regal coupes, a convertible, and lets see, Centruy, Regal, LeSabre, Park Ave, 4 different sedans! The argument over GMS sales and your location has been beaten to DEATH as has your lack of knowledge of the whole other side of the industry, BUILDING cars and their associated costs. So GM is down to 22% heck Toyota, which gets a pass on almost every review, has right at 17%. They still have the lead AND they are reducing overhead and legacy costs, which will make them more profitable. And Profitability is what matters! Market share doesn't matter if you aren't making money! Why do you not freakin' understand this?!

My problem with Buickman is his in ability to understand the business from another prospective. He, and now it seems his new fan, have experience in the dealership side of the business. He doesn't have any understanding of the corprate, design, or engineering side of the business. Also most of his points in the plan could likely be done by the individual dealers or regional dealer bodies rather than GM corprate. Also in many instances franchise laws would prohibit GM from enacting his ideas on a corprate level. In an effort to capture his most recent posts a little example: The fish inside the fish bowl sees it has a world but those outside of it see it for what it is: a small fish bowl.

The red dash actually looks pretty nice. Good God look how much the front fender is flared for the front tire! That thing should look really, really mean!

Didn't I already see this episode? It must be a re-run of As the Buickman Turns.

Niether one sold 100K/year! I win what do I get?

per the title of this post, Yes it is a re-run.

There was a local Chevy dealer advertising free seat protectant and paint protectant applied to each car, a $1000 value! Also new car dealers make more money selling used cars than they do anything else. Buy at auction and mark above average retail and then sell at average retail = $$$. Then you get people who just want to get into the new car and will take whatever you give them for the trade just so they don't have to deal with selling the car privately.

Yep.

Pics?

That would absolutely ROCK!!! Think how good it would look to have the 4.2 I6 with 290 hp as your BASE MOTOR! Put it together with a low cost stick and you would have one VERY sporty W/T. The question is can GM do this at the base W/T's price point? BTW what do the competitors have for base engines? I just looked it up Ford has the 4.2 OHV V6 w/ 202 hp and 260 ft lbs and Dodge likely uses the 3.7 V6 with 215 hp and 235 ftlbs, though they do have a 255 hp 4.0 SOHC V6 coming really soon for the LX cars. The current Tundra has a 4.0 DOHC V6 with 236 hp and 266 ft lbs of torque, the current V8 has 271 hp and 313 ft lbs of torque which should be quite a bit higher on the new model given its size.

Agreed.

Which is definately good.

Ahh Croc we normally agree on most topics but there was bound to be some disagreement of our opinions. I think you took my post in the wrong manner. Actually my post is true in that when we are young, immature and trying to assert our individuality (around the age of 13) we begin to cuss when adults are around to make ourselves feel more adult. That is why I used that age. Also cursing occurs in probably 70% of the threads of this board, and I don't just mean the lounge. In any professional office, work enviroment you will NOT hear curse words being thrown around this often. It just ain't happening. It is NOT professional and like it or not C&G should project a certain level of professionalism. If not it comes off looking young and immature, a source that should not be trusted. You took my post in the wrong way, how is that chip on your shoulder? I am not superior to anyone. I am a very down to Earth guy. I cuss I think most people do but I would say I do it in less than 10% of conversations. And when on line I do it less than 2% of the time, because it makes me seem more professional and adult. I also notice that you do not cuss very often and because of that I an likely many others have built up more respect for you than we would have if you went around blasting people with cuss words because they think you are wrong. The point is that many C&G members acess the site from both home and work and some probably predominantly at work. Should they loose acess to the site because some people can't have more decorum in their posts? Already addressed that, NEXT! I am dicking around because I already did my reading, homework. There are about 50-60 other computers near me with people doing everything from reading their myspace site to printing out search results from medical research magazines that may help their patients with problems beyond their control. The Admins may not care if 1 place blocks the site but I am pretty sure that the members would care if they could only acess the site at home.

If it is cellulose based it really could be made from ANY plant since they all use cellulose. From collected grass clippins to industrial sawdust waste! The big problem here is that there aren't enough refineries. And we know that the oil companies aren't going to convert any of their facilities over to make Ethanol. With Bill Gates and other investors starting to invest in Ethanol producing companies we may see results in 5-8 years but even then it will be a very small dent in the oil industry. We should also remember that most plastics are oil based and that decreasing the amount of imported oil that goes into making gas and other fuels could lead to reduced plastics costs.

Most trashed it because it doesn't flow as well as say the 300 or charger. The car's lines get interupted, especially for me in the C pillar. Also the headlights are a derivitive design and rather large. When you compare this to its concept version, the Airfite, there really is NO comparison. This is much worse of a departure than from the concept Aura and the production one. Both concepts were knockouts but the Aura came out looking better. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I am sure you will enjoy the interior, that WAS done right. That being said good luck with it, hope you get many miles and tons of smiles out of it.

Agreed on the language but I still would like to think that C&G can conduct itself a little more adult than to insult someone because you've proventhem wrong or disagreed with their opinion. THAT is my major concern. Many members are not behaving like adults.

Just curious why they have to be magnesium, it is light weight but costly, and lets be frank here those things aren't very large and can't weigh very much, even in steel.That being said I LOVE the outside. I am still not in love with the dash and center stack though.

I am pretty sure evok has some comments about Billy Durant that you may not like. I remember him hinting to that effect when Josh started calling himself "a young Billy Durant."

I post from the library at school, I am here now before class, and I don't want to try to get on C&G one day and I can't because IT has put up a filter and calls it vulgar. But hey if you guys just want to cuss a lot and act like 13 year olds when mommy isn't around that is up to you but I for one don't cuss a lot. I find that I can express myself, most of the time, without resorting to that level of word usage. If you guys need to curse to express yourself then you need to expand your vocabulary. Ven thanks for being a voice of reason.

Since the site re-launched under Josh there has been no curse filter on the site. That is ok sometimes but come on guys if we want to attract new members we are going to have to act like adults. Case in point: http://www.cheersandgears.com/forums/index...st=0&p=156631 to quote: That is not office talk. It is certainly not profesional and would likely make people think less of you in the real world. Most of the forums I frequent, CZ28 and even GMI, keep this to a minimum. Partly because they have curse filtering, which I know people can get around using symbols, and partly because the mods just don't stand for it. I think if C&G wants to really be taken seriously by GM and members of the GM Enthusiest community we need to quit the cussing and start acting a little more adult. The above is my personal opinion and is not an attack on anyone at all.