Sajeev Mehta

Actually I drove the Northstar powered Lucerne, it was quiet everywhere except for the intake growl. I liked it, but it didn't go with the whole Quiet Tuning thing. I can see why you might not like the 3.8L version. Odds are whatever the dealer did is about all you can expect. I don't know the differences between this 3.8L and the one in your old LeSabre, but its a 90 degree V6, which is an inherently unbalanced engine design. Combined with the extra weight (?) of the Lucerne, maybe the 3.8L is overworked? That's my only explanation, seems to be the case for the Ford Five Hundred too. Its motor was a lot smoother in the old Taurus. On a side note: its pretty cool how I bitched about the Lexus ES 350 being noisy (everywhere but the engine) and I get a loyal following at the Club Lexus forums of pissed off owners ready to jump ship. It was only a matter of time before someone else thought the Buick's engine noise was not becoming of Quiet Tuning. :AH-HA_wink:

Shhhhhh!!! :AH-HA_wink:

I may not always agree with RF's delivery, but white-collar America gets away with murder and someone is FINALLY putting their feet to the fire in the public domain. Think about this way: if there is (or was) and TTAC for Enron, I think my town (Houston) would have been a lot better off because of it. If he's wrong and GM turns this ship around with class-leading products, he'll probably eat his words and happily sing the virtues of GM's product offering. Speaking of, my Saturn Aura road test is in the works...uh-oh!

Thanks for the sales numbers. Always nice to see it. Does anyone have the fleet vs. retail sales? People say the Camry is becoming more of a rental car (haven't seen any here yet) maybe that's why its selling stronger and stronger.

I question the wide-spread use of the meter itself. If ya "glance" harder you'll see we give negative reviews to cars around the world. My Camry review? The "GM death watch" has an inflammatory name, but that's it. If there was an Enron death watch, people wouldn't care, but if we trace the moves of the management team that's let GM slide to the verge of bankruptcy, we become unamerican? That's not fair. Shouldn't we hold the rich CEOs (with golden parachutes) and Board of Directors accountable? Shouldn't we watch what they are doing to the most important company in America? Don't tell me we have an anti-American agenda, only someone who gives it "one glance" comes to that conclusion. I see your point, you are right. Well I didn't come up with the name, so I'm gonna have to live with it. Ya gotta admit its a catchy name, though. Again, you are right. I can't pick a clear winner between the two. Put them both together (Lexus 6-speed with Northstar V8 for one) in a few areas and you'd have one frickin awesome vehicle. Haven't read it yet. That's disappointing (well not to me, but to Lexus owners) because previous LS's had a very quiet motors. You could still tell there was a V8 under there, but man, it was real quiet.

No I'm questioning the dB meter. There is a difference. Everyone uses it but that doesn't mean someone's ear is wrong. Human ears are different than a dB meter, and dB meters come in different qualities anyway. Where have you been for the past few days? How many times do I have to say the Lexus was noisier at 75mph before it'll get through to you? Do you even read what I write? As far as conjecture: you are not the only person who posts on this thread. As far as secondhand: if its obtained, derived, or borrowed from another; its not original. Unless you tested both cars with a dB meter, its secondhand info. Your link doesn't help much: do you not believe that some ears hear some frequencies better than other people? Does everyone hear 1,20, 300, 600hz frequencies as clearly as everyone else? That's my point. Prove me wrong. Once again, I hereby proclaim my reviews to be subjective. Do you even read what I write? No, your inflammatory speech shows your true colors. You said your secondhand Edmunds facts proved me wrong, when it only proved 1 out of 3 of my statements wrong. Unless you got something new to say that isn't in a venomous tone, I don't see any other reason for your behaviour. Do you even read what I write? Yup, I'm a jap-lovin Camry hater, that's for sure. Good luck with them. Do me a favor and don't read any of my work, any of my postings. Since you can't seem to appreciate the occasional consensus building I make with a few members (not all), like to throw in secondhand information that has little to do with my first hand subjective road tests and wrap it all up with phases like: "THA'TS COMPLETE AND UTTER B.S." "half-cocked wannabe" Have a good week.

Problem is, Toyota does a good (not perfect) job pleasing their customers. And Camrys hold their value better than just about anything on the road. Its a car that works well. Course I'm not sure why I'm defending them, I don't much care for them. Whatever.

What is your definition of a winner? Mine is being the best selling car in America, or at least in the top three. 1. Camry 2. Accord 3. Taurus There were a few years that the Taurus was #1, but its usually the Camry. When was the Lumina or Impala up there? Was it really a success? Your criteria above is for any family sedan, and right now the Camry fits the bill for the vast majority of this country.

If you read stats without questioning the testing procedures (CR Kool-Aid, JD Power, etc) or massaged PR clippings you most certainly are NOT getting objective information. Every source of info has bias, some are sneaky about it, others are blunt. And if I've been proven wrong by a dB meter of unknown quality in one of my three points...fine. You can have your victory. The human ear hears things differently than a machine, and my ear's frequency response is just as unique as my fingerprint. I asked for others to report on their experiences with the ES: all I get are secondhand tidbits from Edmunds.com and more conjecture. Tell me what YOUR EARS think of the two after driving them both.

No, my claim was "at 75mph, the Lexus ES has SIGNIFICANTLY more wind noise than a "Quiet Tuned" Lucerne." Read my first post again.: that's a compliment to the Buick and agrees with Edmunds. I apologize if this was initially unclear. Ok, so maybe I heard more resonance from a big V8. I don't walk around with testing equipment (that would require a paycheck) so I'm mostly subjective in my testing. Deal with it. Consumer reports has nice circles and numerical ratings for the cut-and-dry folks.

So Edmund's numbers prove me wrong on #3 (even if resonance may not factor into the equation) but backed up the other points. Ya know, the last time I checked, 2 out of 3 was far from "the complete opposite". But I wasn't very good at math. I never even mentioned the sound volumes at idle, so why on earth did you bother adding that? Then again, thanks for the added inflammatory dialogue, it always helps to rally the troops.

Better word choice. Much appreciated.

That is very true. Course right now only the Chrysler 300 is the only car mentioned with actual style. But the RWD chassis supports a certain long hood body proportion, and it works.

Maybe FlyBrian needs to add an exemption for TTAC authors in their membership agreement:

Don't think like that. Remember how great GM's front wheel drive sedans were, remember their soaring profits and their market share gains. That must be how it looks through the rose-colored glasses of C&G members here. And for those who enjoy taking personal shots at me, racial or otherwise: go pound sand. (my apologies to the admin/moderators, though I expect actual moderating from you all)