VenSeattle

I'll agree to everything you've said in the closing statement. I don't want any GM division to pass. Pontiac is the weakest because it doesn't have any "official" programs on the books.... plus it's only sold in North America unlike Buick. GM needs to get its head out of its ass if it’s going to keep all three alive. A Riviera and GTO would not compete against each other. So excluding coupes from Buick is down right suicidal to the brand. I honestly don't want GMC to turn into Buick either. GMC is strong, providing it has a strong supporting brand next to it (kind of like Jeep & Chrysler.) Currently GMC is linked with Pontiac and Buick. If you think the phasing out of Pontiac & Buick wouldn't tarnish GMC's reputation, you are mistaken. GMC would be tarnished. The law suits and dealerships closing (non-truck heavy markets) would take a toll on GMC's gross sales and image. Sales would drop two-fold including the $3+ gas bill. I "hope" all three can survive. However, GMC-Buick-Pontiac all need to be pushed upscale (dealership experience included) in order to accomplish that. I don't think GM has the ability to pull that off. Outside of the Bonneville, Pontiac doesn't have the premium pull. I would have even chosen a Bonneville SSEi or GXP over a LeSabre Limited... but no other Pontiac could have accomplished that. GM needs to leave the "boy-racer" for "Chevrolet SS" vehicles and turn Pontiac into an Acura competitor. With GMC as premium trucks, Pontiac=Acura, & Buick=Lexus... all with 4yr/50k warranties... only then will all three survive. Consistency is key. Tiered brands can no longer exist under the same rooftop, but complementary brands can.

How much for a G5 loaded with 6500 miles? $10k?

Buick was very successful and popular in the 1980's (since you brought up Reatta) with muscle cars and "sportiness." Buick didn't begin receiving the "blue-hair" treatment until the 1990s. Bull$hit! Compare Pontiacs to Buicks in the 1980s & 1990s. Sorry Pontiac interiors were pleagued with cheap gray buttons and cheap puffy crap all over the place that made absolutely no sense. Buick's & Oldsmobile's interior materials were both better most of the time. The GTO is an exception to Pontiac. Not the rule. You know that. There's nothing American Pontiac about the GTO's interior. Take the proposed RWD Grand Prix & proposed RWD GTO and call the sedan 'Regal' & the coupe 'Grand National' or 'GNX' and we'll see how the market (Baby Boomers) react. The problem with that is Lexus doesn't have a "history" of popular coupes. Buick does. Playing on your strengths is vital. Also, many of Lexus's vehicles ABA aren't that much lower than Buick's. You can't Damn Buick for having a loyal client base that keep buying, but Buick needs to continue attracting new buyers. I've been dismissed on C&G too many times for being "an exception" to Buick's typical clientele. That only perpetuates the misconception that Buick only attracts old people. Ignoring that there are young people out there that like Buick is ignorant. It’s simply not true. There are several young members on C&G alone (teens-40s) that also like Buick. Many claim they can't afford a new Buick but they want one. Isn't that an 'aspirational' quality for Buick? Buick has proven over the past 6 years that it can enter new markets and attract new types of buyers. Rendezvous is 5 years old and still holds its own against the brand new (and less expensive) Pontiac Torrent. Now they want to take away the Rendezvous from Buick and give the Torrent to GMC? That's just stupid. Buick has a proven market for compact/midsize Premium CUVs. A Theta-based (not Torrent clone) Rendezvous makes perfect sense. Buick deserves it. On top of that, Pontiac's Aztek failed where Buick succeeded. Both divisions had free reign over styling and Pontiac dropped the ball. Buick's approach found an audience. Buick's Terraza also held its own on the same showroom floor with Montana. Terraza continuously outsold Saturn's Relay despite the cloning of the two vehicles. Buick found an audience for a Premium Minivan... so let's also give it to GMC. Buick's Rainier sold better than many Bravada years. I completely agree with giving this to GMC but it showed Buick could even "wow" some SUV buyers and tempt them to pick a Buick over a GMC on the same showroom floor. Now rebadge the Lucerne as a GMC and see how well it sells. – There’s the problem! Buick can sell an upscale Pontiac. Buick can sell an upscale GMC. The reverse isn’t true. If Pontiac and Buick go down, GMC will too. GMC, no matter how successful it is today, will not survive on its own. It must have Pontiac and/or Buick. Pontiac has shown it can not sell CUVs, minivans, or even large sedans very well any more. Buick on the other hand, has taken a sow’s ear and turned it into the best product it could. Rainier, Terraza, & Rendezvous all exceeded GM’s initial sales expectations. To say that GM underestimates Buick’s potential and ignores Buick’s possibilities is a huge understatement. Many have mentioned GM can’t afford to invest in a full line-up for Buick, well that’s because the investment for compact/midsize RWD sedans & coupes are going to Pontiac and CUV/SUV/Truck investments are going to GMC. There’s an obvious solution to this dilemma. Lose all three or save one.

Compared to my Park Avenue (and the Seville STSs I've rented in the past), the Lucerne is noticeably Quiet Tuned. You can barely hear the AC while driving. Road and wind noise are minimal under the worst conditions. I'm not saying the ES isn't successful at its task either, but the Lucerne w/ Quiet Tuning accomplishes its mission. Hearing a DOHC V8 isn't a negative in the Lucerne's case. The V8 growl is what appeals to a lot of potential buyers because those 2 extra cylinders make a difference to them. I've heard too many bitter arguments about how unrefined the OHV V6 is... how it sounds coarse. People screamed for GM to put a DOHC engine in the Lucerne. GM did. Now people are complaining because they can just hear the engine... if any at all. Sorry, but some people don't want to be satisfied.

YES! And the Northstar sounds perfectly fine. However wind and road noise (sounds I wouldn't expect to hear) would annoy me.

Wait a minute. How can the Northstar's growl be that annoying if the Lucerne can (and does) get quieter than an ES when cruising?

So it's okay for GMC & Pontiac to siphon off potential muscle cars, coupes, compact cars, and compact CUVs from Buick because "they're all three just one division so it doesn't matter which brand gets it" but it's not okay for GMC to suffer the same compromise? Sorry, GMC is a truck brand. If $3 bucks a gallon make truck sales drop, that should impact GMC... not Buick. Buick should have the CUVs while GMC remains "true to its narrow brand image" like so many people are forcing Buick to do (old person's car .) Remember, they're all at the same dealership. Why should it make a difference for GMC buyers to have a CUV alternative with a BUICK badge on it? After all, Riviera supplicants are supposed to accept the next RWD Pontiac coupe as an equivalent. I fear the logic behind this 3-in-1 grouping will destroy all three brands.

2 of them in fact.

You are pretty much describing what the 1995-1999 Buick Riviera was.

Beside Trucks... name another? Roadsters? Check Coupes? Check Convertibles? Check SUVs? Check CUVs? Check Compacts? Check Midsize sedans? Check Large sedans? Check Luxury sedans? Check Muscle/Performance cars? Check RWD? Check FWD? Check I'm not trying to be an ass... just that Buick could easily be a full line-up Premium brand... way before Pontiac or GMC. Buick could absorb the other two. Its definition of what a vehicle should be is applicable to almost any segment.

I agree... I liked Crest. Heart just made me think of recent Camry commercials... "When does a car become more than a..."

No. The Torrent needs to go upscale, be priced right above the Saturn VUE, and renamed to Buick Rendezvous.

I read through this topic, but I'll comment on the initial idea of it. We've known of an Eps II LaCrosse for a while. We also know the "LaCrosse" name was just introduced in China. Why would GM just up and cancel the LaCrosse before its replacement is ready? Everything N* said is what I've thought and pretty much agree with.

I don't believe Buickman is wanting to keep the current Rendezvous around in its current form, but to replace it with another compact/midsize CUV in Buick's line-up. The Enclave will be larger and more expensive than the Rendezvous. There's room in the line-up and a customer-base for Buick to have a mid-size CUV from $25k-$32k. If Buick doesn't receive a premium compact sedan for an entry-level vehicle, the next-gen Rendezvous could serve this purpose (in price at least). I have to agree with his idea even though we've discussed this before.

It's very close to the Yaris and equal to or better than the xA & xB. This is definitely a step in the right direction. I like the way the 2007 looks too.

Sorry to hear that Josh. I know you loved that car. Glad to know you're going to be okay.

Nissan? Toyota?

Congrats guy!

Those suckers can run pretty fast when they want to/need to. I've always found them fascinating. Cool pics.

No it doesn't... please elaborate.

Huh... I could have sworn earlier that I read what I stated. If this is true, Buick is in trouble.

Supposedly, the $3 billion was to go towards developing the next generation of vehicles... Just like Cadillac's went towards all-new vehicles instead of fixing up the current line-up. The EpsII LaCrosse better be amazing considering the suggested investment.

Rainier, Terraza, LaCrosse (Regal remodel), & Lucerne (LeSabre remodel) were not part of the $3 Billion investment.

I think Zeta exists for multiple divisions at the expense of Buick. Sure, Buick may get a vehicle (as in one vehicle) out of Zeta, but the $3 Billion spent on only Buick would have revived Buick's entire portfolio. No amount of investment was announced for Pontiac and it's possibly getting two! A $3 Billion price tag for three vehicle (EPSII LaCrosse, Zeta Lucerne, and Lambda Enclave) that share global platforms is ridiculous to believe. If Buick had received the full amount, Buick wouldn't be left with a small 3-vehicle line-up... Oh Well... maybe a Buick coupe/convertible will become possible later on... But anyways, that's what I think happened to Buick's $3 Billion investment.