VenSeattle

with $8,000-$10,000 discounts (at least in this part of the country)... those Commander sales weren't painless. That's in its first year too. GM W-Body cars sell more with less than half that discount. As for the Liberty remodel... It's now the Cherokee that Jeep needed 5 years ago.

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Heh... no just watered down Jeeps and Chryslers. Thank god GM is developing more respect for Brand Identity. It's not like GM will come out with a Pontiac V-Series... We haven't even seen the Supers yet, and people are bashing/dooming them. Let up. Most of you are not their target market. Buick isn't going after SRTs.

He makes me think of that pic you posted a while back of Jake Gyllenhaal. BrokeBack Mountain 2?

Interesting. I'm now convinced Buick-China will end up with a unique US-Based-Zeta Buick Lucerne. I don't see any reason why it couldn't be produced in Shanghai along side the Holden Statesman. Holden won't be coming to the US, so Pontiac can use modified Holdens in the US. Buick can't do this while being sold next to Holdens(China, for now. Maybe elsewhere in the future.) and Pontiacs(US & Canada). If Buick’s plan is to consolidate its global offerings down to one consistent line-up, it's the only possibility that makes sense. We'll see how this plays out.

I'm not sure either, but in my life time, GM has always been "General Motors - the manufacturer of....." To try and pass Pontiac or Chevrolet off as separate entities would appear foolish IMO. The media would make a 'Wizard of Oz' mockery of GM "...don't look behind the curtain." Yeah... Lexus is shielded from Toyota's recent reliability woes, while 'Toyota' benefits from Lexus' remarkable reliability... but... GM is treated differently. Even with Buick and Cadillac excelling in quality/reliability... people/media still say "(Insert other GM brand here) is below average. GM can't consistently build reliable vehicles." In a nutshell, as Fly pointed out, there isn't a 'GM' brand. So any vehicle GM manufactures ultimately represents GM... regardless of the brand. GM "Corporate" has a strong presence and voice in the Industry. GM should play to its strengths right now. Maybe once each brand is revitalized, GM can start individualizing and pushing Brand identity, allowing Division/General Managers more face-time with the public. But then you go back to ‘division’ of what?

They seemed to indicate that the Lucerne Super would be more of a styling package than different powertrain, but I agree. The easiest and most probable move will be to boost output on the Lucerne Super to DTS level. Sounds good to me.

Well, Edmunds didn't refer to this. I was just talking about Edmunds' justifications (reliability costs)... however the best way to gauge "customer aggravation" is customer service surveys, and Saturn dealerships trump Toyota hands down. Saturn customers are practically cared for with a white glove treatment. But still, GM vehicles are reliable.

I spoke with a GM/Buick rep at Portland's Autoshow this past weekend. They stated the LaCrosse Super will debut in New York. However, they also said there are rumors of a Lucerne Super possibly debuting along side the LaCrosse Super. Perhaps GM received a lot of good feedback from SEMA?

Saturn Aura - AS-TESTED PRICE: $26,919 Toyota Camry - AS-TESTED PRICE: $31,213 Aura: FUEL MILEAGE EPA combined: 23 mpg AW overall: 22.0 mpg Camry: FUEL MILEAGE EPA combined: 25 mpg AW overall: 24.9 mpg That's a $4,294 difference. It would take at least a decade (or more) to offset that much of a difference based on fuel economy and reliability. The difference in their annual fuel-costs isn't that much. GM's superior warranty would cover most reliability issues if there were any... Saturns tend to hold their resale value also. Bottom line... You just pay more for the Camry. Someone should really go out to Edmunds and see what they estimate to be the annual fuel and repair costs for both the Camry and Aura.

Let's not forget it was recently announced that GME was working on a "larger platform" for the Insignia. Did we ever determine that this was referring to Epsilon II or is it a completely different/larger FWD platform? Could the US market use it as a premium FWD/AWD platform for large vehicles? If this is referring to Epsilon II: Toyota can use the Camry platform for the large Avalon and luxury ES350. Why can't GM use the larger Epsilon II platform for FWD/AWD Lucerne/DTS replacements?

If only Toyota dealerships could fit the new Tundra into their service bays.... LOL Toyota... moving into 2nd

As someone who likes both the DTS & Lucerne, the DTS interior puts the Lucerne to shame. If GM was serious about motivating DTS buyers to Buick, that wouldn't be the case. They should be on par. I agree with Fly... with the new CTS being similar to the 5-series in size, a vehicle should merge the DTS & STS role into one vehicle. Whether making it the STS/SLS and moving DTS to Ultra Luxury status or vice-versa... they shouldn’t occupy the same price range for much longer.

That is exactly what happens to me. After three days, I'm hallucinating.

BV - been verrry busy at work, so I'm lucky to read this right now (even though it's the week end.) Sorry to hear about your cousin and friend, but I'm glad that they're ok. Watch out for February, I've heard we're in for a repeat.

Do your own research... Your comment hardly discredits mine... Those premium manufacturers are too cheap to put in 6-way or 8-way power passenger seats regardless. They missed the details!!!!!!!!

Because it's one more example of GM missing the details.......it's the way they cost-cut thinking no one will notice or care...... It's hardly "insignificant." I just went to trade in my Buick Park Avenue for the technologically advanced $52,000 2007 Acura RL but I discovered the RL only has a 4-way power passenger seat and backed out. Deal Breaker! How did Honda miss the details... damn cost cutters. Bet you didn't notice when you checked it out at the LA Auto Show...

Hmmmm...... HUMMER & SAAB (All 30 of them) are all pretty much sold on status. Corvette too... you should know, you're one of them. I just can't picture an ex-BMW employee driving a performance car that didn't have some sort of status/fashion draw...

Actually, I'm just surprised they sold that many...

Times two... I really expected more after the new S-Class. I think it'll look better in person also, since most of the interior chrome touches don't seem to show up very well in pictures.

I think this is a good move. SWB minivans looked awkward and cheap. This will allow DCX to style each vehicle in proportion to their actual size. It eliminates the compromise.

All that is perfectly fine. Some prefer bigger and some don't. That's preference. Neither are wrong. The market is large enough to cater to both in this price range. Cadillac will be coming out with its smaller alternative soon enough (BLS successor.) As for sales volume, a lot of that has to do with how many body styles each vehicle has available. The CTS only offers a sedan. The 3-Series comes in sedan, coupe, convertible, and wagon. Not to mention, the 3-Series has AWD available, which just became available on the 2008 CTS. All things considered, the CTS sedan was a raving success (even with its cheap interior... how it performed was actually its greatest asset and showed in comparison tests against its direct competitors. So it wasn't entirely about dimensions.)

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/kids/research/airbag/index.html

First, thank you for showing there is more rear passenger space in the CTS than the BMW 3-Series. Second, please see above. this wasn't a debate on packaging efficiency. Third, the importance of an inch should really be pawned off on The O.C. since the difference between the interior dimensions on a 2005 Camry and a 2005 LaCrosse are even closer than the CTS & 3-Series... In most cases, we're talking fractions of an inch. However, he'll completely vow how important a half an inch is which makes the W-Platform's rear seat completely unsuitable for adults. yet... for some reason... the 3-series backseat is perfectly acceptable for adults on long trips.

The debate wasn't on packaging efficiency... we were comparing the literal space available for full-size adults. Regardless of how much space you think should be available, the amount of space needed for the average full-sized adult isn't relative.