VenSeattle

The days of every brand having a large sedan (or multiple large sedans) are over... for sure. But there is a market, and will always be a market, for a large sedan. BMW 7-series, Lexus LS, & Mercedes S-Class are not going anywhere... regardless of how low volume they reach. Buick could successfully sell a single large sedan on any number of stretched platforms in GM's stable. Cadillac should also receive a large flagship sedan to compete directly against tier-1 luxury brands. Chevrolet Malibus and Impalas could easily remain focused on different buyers as midsize sedans (FWD/RWD/AWD or whatever.)

I agree... which is one of the reasons I think Pontiac could/should actually be positioned over Chevrolet/Corvette... such as take on Porsche/ Maserati. That would leave Cadillac open to eventually foray into the exotics like Lamborghini & Ferrari when/if the day comes.... Cien anyone?

WTF???

Toyota cuts North American production further December 5, 2008 8:31 PM ET Link to Article DETROIT (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp on Friday said it was cutting North American production of its best-selling cars including the Camry and Corolla sedans in response to rising inventories and a slump in sales. Toyota will idle assembly plants for additional days in December and January in Georgetown, Kentucky; Princeton, Indiana; and Fremont, California, spokesman Mike Goss said. Toyota, like its smaller rivals, has been caught out by the collapse in demand for cars and trucks in the United States, a downturn that accelerated in October and November amid tightening credit and deepening consumer uncertainty. Despite a high-profile zero-percent financing offer, Toyota's U.S. sales tumbled 34 percent in November. Toyota had previously said it would shut down its U.S. assembly plants on December 22 and December 23. Now, with the exception of a Texas truck plant, it is idling its factories for additional days. The Kentucky plant, which makes the Camry, Avalon and Solara, will be shut for nine additional days in December and January, Goss said. Toyota's NUMMI plant in Fremont, which makes the Corolla, will be shut down for 10 more days in December and January. The Indiana plant has two assembly lines. One, making the Sienna minivan, will be idled for six additional days in December and January. The other, making the Sequoia SUV, will be idled for one additional day this month. Inventories have built up at the automaker famed for running a lean and cost-efficient production system where parts are delivered just in time to be installed in vehicles on the assembly line. Measured by the number of sales needed to clear inventory, Toyota's unsold stock of vehicles has doubled from 45 days one year earlier to near 90 days for some vehicles now. Toyota's plant in San Antonio, Texas, was idled for three months until early November as the automaker ran down an excess supply of its full-size Tundra pickup truck. Toyota continues to pay its U.S. nonunion workers during the time they are not employed on the assembly line because of plant shutdowns. A similar practice at General Motors Corp under its agreement with the United Auto Workers union has come in for sharp criticism as GM and other U.S. automakers seek a $34 billion federal bailout. The UAW said this week it would scrap that controversial "jobs bank" provision of its contract with U.S. automakers.

I actually do too. I have no desire for either brand to disappear, but I am 100% against either of them fighting for the same buyers ever again. Their product line-up can not be so similar to where they're always looking over their backs to make sure not to step on each other's tail. The Buick brand should be free to grow where Buick would be able to successfully compete. Pontiac too. Finding that perfect harmony between the two brands would guarantee their long term survival.

Just don't think "small" with Pontiac or Buick... They must have completely separate, viable, justifiable existences. Pick a true market for each of them that they could attach themselves to and dominate without overlap with another GM brand. Pontiac taking on the "likes" of Porsche would keep Pontiac from overlapping... it would fit the "premium" expectations of the mid-tier trio and give Pontiac a mission that's true to the brand. There's one thing GM has always done well... that's build expensive vehicles. If Pontiac had Boxter/911/Panamera fighters... those would be vehicles no other GM brand could honestly provide without being outside of its brand character.

What if Pontiac received a Corvette-based coupe and sedan? To counter the Porsche 911 & Panamera? or perhaps a performance sedan/coupe along the likes of the CLS? you have to make sure Pontiac's niche doesn't overlap with Chevrolet either... Here's what I'm saying... GM decided against transforming "Corvette" into a brand of 2-3 high performance vehicles. However, all may not be lost since the "performance brand" is up for rethinking. If GMC & Buick are to become Premium/near/mid-lux brands... Pontiac's high-perfomance brand could become what GM decided against for Corvette. It would be in good company as halo vehicles for GM's premium outlet.

Sounds feasible, but a couple of things: The CUV below Equinox will replace the HHR. HHR will not be remodeled IIRC. What are the 7-8 models you intend for Cadillac? If Pontiac is to become like Corvette is to Chevrolet, then Pontiac will not have 3-4 models. Buick can sell the volume compact cars. Pontiac will not be about Volume. In fact, for the sake of a halo vehicle for the BPG franchises, I'd prefer Pontiac to actually receive a platform-mate to the Corvette instead of becoming some type of Scion fighter. Even Chevy is allowed to have a Camaro (Buick GNX?) along side the "Corvette" niche.

How do we know that it's Pontiac's job or that it's duplication when we don't know which direction Pontiac will be taken? If Pontiac is to be limited to "niche" status don't expect performance Delta IIs, performance Epsilon IIs, performance Alphas, and performance Zetas... that's not a niche brand by any means but a full car line-up. Even if Pontiac gets a couple of those, there will be room for a premium-priced performance vehicle for Buick...

Give Pontiac the next-gen Delta II Opel Astra family (sedan, coupe, convertible, and wagon) while giving Buick the SAAB 9-3 Delta II family...

That's fine, but GM is already developing Delta II vehicles for Opel, SAAB, & Buick... I figure at least one of the non-Chevrolet Delta IIs will have to make their way to the US considering at least two of them were scheduled to do so up until last week (under Saturn and SAAB)... And remember, Buick's NA line-up is consolidating with China's. China will have Delta II, SWB Epsilon II & LWB Epsilon II... on top of Zeta. Well, my train of thought was based on that PCS already stated Buick will be getting Alpha. Take that for what you will... Anyway. Differentiate? Do you believe a luxury Riviera Coupe is a carbon copy of a compact Cadillac 3-series fighter? I personally don't think it would be difficult to differentiate the two.

Buick will probably start near-luxury and top out at mid-luxury. A compact Delta II-based sedan similar to the 1st gen TSX (with Sedan/coupe/wagon versions) would be a perfectly fine entry level family of cars for Buick. That's what I'm suggesting the Delta II cars to be.

Buick has a justified performance heritage just like all other traditional GM brands. There's no reason why the GNX, Grand National, or T-Type trim couldn't be reborn.

Buick is not a direct competitor to Hyundai. Chevrolet is. If anything, give the G8 to Chevrolet to undercut the Genesis. As for luxury Hyundais, they need to undercut everyone in the premium/luxury market to encourage people to check them out. Buick can charge more than Chevrolet & Hyundai, but still needs to charge less, than say, a comparable Lexus, Infiniti, or Lincoln. A flaw in your logic is "Cadillac's Range." $40k-$48k is not Cadillac Range... Compact - Entry level, then yes, but that is not a range owned exclusively by Cadillac. The problem here is that Cadillac is not charging Cadillac prices. Cadillac is charging BUICK prices for a BMW 5-series/E-Class sized competitor. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. The CTS should be priced (accompanied by the expected level of content) more closely to the German competitors. It's not. That's why Cadillac and Buick are bumping up against each other in pricing. If Cadillac demanded the market price for a mid-sized luxury car ($50k-$70k), Buick's $40k-$48k premium-large sedan would not be overlapping. A comparably sized large-luxury car by Cadillac should be nowhere close to Buick's price range. Cadillac should be able to charge $75k-$110k for an S-Class competitor. BUICK Compact (Delta II):$22k - $30k (3 body styles create a wider price range) Midsize (SWB Epsilon II): $27k - $34k Premium Midsize/Large (LWB Epsilon II): $31k - $39k Large RWD Luxury sedan (Zeta or Sigma): $40k - $48k CADILLAC Compact (Alpha): $35k - $50k Midsize (Sigma): $50k - $70k Large (Zeta/Sigma+): $75k - $110k Cadillac needs to provide more and charge more. Period. That will allow Chevrolet and Buick to spread out and assist with preventing overlap. A person shopping for a $45k compact sport/luxury car will not cross-shop a large luxury Buick. Just like a person shopping for a SWB Zeta Impala for $30k will not be looking at an Epsilon II-based Buick Regal.

With Congress still yet to decide the fate of GM's return to profitability plan, Buick's role has potentially transformed from a 'niche' brand in the USA back into a core brand… a core brand that could potentially offer a full line of cars with the possibility of a crossover or two when all is said and done. So, what should Buick's line-up look like when all the pieces fall into place? Several suggestions have been tossed around in other related topics, but let's try to consolidate our future visions of Buick's line-up here. A wishlist line-up if you will... I'll start: (Yes, I'm borrowing from some suggestions already given because I agree with them ) CUVs Opel Antara becomes Buick Rendezvous Buick Enclave remains Cars NG Opel Astra or NG SAAB 9-3 (both Delta products) becomes a Buick Skylark or Skyhawk line-up of compact vehicles (sedan, coupe, & wagon.) (offer hybrid version) --- This is, of course, if GM decides to scrap the Delta II-based Buick already in development for China. Opel Insignia become Buick Regal (SWB Epsilon II) (offer hybrid version) Buick LaCrosse (LWB Epsilon II) remains. Could be renamed to Invicta. (offer hybrid version) If G8 imports cease, instead import Buick Zeta-based Park Avenue to replace Lucerne. (perhaps share the assembly line with Camaro in Oshawa) Either that or give Buick a Sigma-based sedan to replace Lucerne and built at LGR. The Sigma Buick could be built in China as well. Specialty/Niche Vehicles Volt-based hybrid called Electra Alpha-based coupe/convertible called Riviera (offer hybrid version) Camaro-based coupe - Buick Grand National (gotta help prop-up Zeta production at Oshawa somehow.)

Link to charts SALES YTD SALES Nov Nov 2008 2007 % Chg 2008 2007 % Chg Ferrari 137 133 3.0 1,479 1,511 -2.1 Maserati 158 305 -48.2 2,245 2,204 1.9 Bentley 207 340 -39.1 2,540 3,678 -30.9 Rolls Royce 39 37 5.4 378 293 29.0 Maybach 9 14 -35.7 113 154 -26.6

WSJ.com November Market Share by Manufacturer: 20.5% - General Motors Corp. (includes SAAB) 17.4% - Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc. 16.4% - Ford Motor Company (includes Volvo) 11.4% - Chrysler LLC 10.2% - American Honda Motor Co Inc. 6.2% - Nissan North America Inc. 4.6% - Hyundai Motor America (includes Kia Motors America Inc.) 4.4% - Volkswagen of America Inc. (includes Audi of America Inc.) 2.6% - BMW of North America Inc. (includes Mini) 1.9% - Mazda Motor of America Inc. 1.9% - Mercedes-Benz 1.8% - Subaru of America Inc. 0.7% - Mitsubishi Motors N A, Inc. 0.4% - American Suzuki Motor Corp. 0.4% - Jaguar/Land Rover 0.2% - Porsche Cars NA Inc.

Isn't Scion still considered a niche brand? They have three models and won't come close to its 150k production cap this year. Check over at Suzuki as well. They won't hit 100k in US sales this year. I'd say Pontiac's brand image is in worse shape than both of the others when it comes to marketing small 4-cyl cars. Even strong 4-cyl brands aren't selling well this year, like VW... Jetta sedan/wagon have only sold 89k this year. Golf/Rabbit/GTI/R32 have only sold around 34k this year.

Lexus and Inifiniti platorms are not entirely exclusive... although they don't share everything with other brands. I don't see a "cost" reason for not offering a $40k-$48k Sigma-based Buick flagship if Cadillac is able to offer the V6 CTS & STS between $33k-$50k. The Genesis sedan will not remain that cheap for long (expect the price to climb each year and with each engine upgrade)... if it even survives.

In that case... can you elaborate on this "Plan B" that has been mentioned if the government decides not to help out?

ooooohhhhhhhhhhh kay............. so much for the non-partisan...

If Buick gets the Zeta Sedan, prices will be over $40k. The Lucerne SUPER is currently priced at $41k. I personally vote for Buick receiving a car on Cadillac's SIGMA platform... such as a version of the Cadillac STS.

But the LaCrosse and Lucerne don't have those features. All Buicks offer Bluetooth. In other words, Buick offers Bluetooth on the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave. All Buicks offer Navigation. In other words, Buick offers Turn-by-Turn Navigation on the LaCrosse, Lucerne, and Enclave. Buick offers DVD Navigation on the Enclave and Lucerne. Buick's line-up in NA and China will be consolidated/grown into one international line-up. That started with the Enclave and will continue with the NG LaCrosse. Now it looks like Opel's vehicles will be folded into Buick's international line-up. Opel is a mid-tier brand and should make an excellent fit for Buick's volume offerings.

... buyers still need to qualify for the 0% financing...

From what I remember reading, BMW is hurting particularly bad because the brand depends on leasing more than most car manufacturers (regardless of luxury or non-luxury brands.)