VenSeattle

You know, I went to the Toyota.com website and didn't find a single Scion model underneath "Cars." I even clicked "All Cars" and still didn't find them.

Sorry, but if those were the only two vehicles available to choose from, I'd rather gnaw my right arm off. + =

Get back to us in 2011 since you continue to play ignorant of the product plans for Buick. (BTW, Camry & Lincolns (in general) have heavy incentives too.)

All of my friends have always been older (1-20 years older.) I've also always dated older. Very rarely has anyone younger attracted my attention. It's funny though. I still get "hit on" by 22-24 year olds thinking I'm their age or younger. They're shocked (and usually uncomfortable) when I tell them my age, which I'm now 31. I must get my youthful appearance from my mother. She still looks like she's in her early 40's even though she's almost 55. I need to consider highlights again or the "premature" gray hairs might begin to betray me. :AH-HA_wink:

Remember, Honda hybrids sell in very low volume... so I'm sure they're referring to the Civic line-up in total average (not just one trim level) when referring to "car." This explains why the Prius makes such an impact and the Civic hybrid doesn't.

You might enjoy reading the entire topic. Several issues have been discussed in depth. As for RWD, Hyundai is about to foray into this segment. Let's see how well your prodigy brand does with Genesis. So far, everything else recently from Hyundai has fizzled. One hurdle with this philosophy is retraining the consumer that RWD is just as safe in inclement weather as FWD. In their raw form, they're not. When a RWD vehicle is outfitted with several additional technological features, then yes. But as my sister-in-law tried to counter on that issue in an off-shoot discussion of my brief interview (see previous post), she automatically deducted if a RWD vehicle with all those features (finally) make the RWD vehicle safe to drive, then a FWD vehicle with those features will be safer still. It's almost impossible to win this argument without a demonstration. Even then, the first sign of oversteer or "fish-tailing" in a RWD car will scare most FWD owners because they don't know how to correct the slide. It's the complete opposite to dealing with understeer in FWD cars. I can understand and agree to a point with you. If GM concludes they'll sell only a few Impalas (100k or less) regardless if they're FWD or RWD, then by all means go with Zeta and RWD. It could have more of a "halo" effect than a FWD sedan. However, we're talking about Chevrolet with a Charger alternative, not a 300C alternative. The Charger carries little prestige. The G8 & Buick Zeta will both exist with a RWD Impala and be on better grounds to compare to and challenge the 300C. Then there's the cost factor for Chevrolet. Epsilon II will be less expensive to build than Zeta. Chevrolet would benefit from the cost break building the next Malibu & Impala on a common platform. I'm beginning to wonder if there's any magic production number that will make Zeta cost effective in the sub-$30k range. Camaro is unique enough to have multiple powertrains and special packages that will span its purchase price from $20k-$45k. That won't be the case for a Zeta-based Impala. Knightfan, you shouldn't feel that way. None of us post with quiescent intent. Enthusiasm and passion surround our opinions, which conflict regularly. Challenging and stimulating conversations occur constantly. That's one of the fascinating conditions that stand out with GM: GM attracts variety. Always has. Always will. It's difficult to say that about most import car companies. If I wanted a lemming brand with a lemming fan site, I'd buy a car with a big "L" on the front of it. Keep sharing your wants, desires, dreams, and expectations. That's the only way GM will know there's enough demand =

The NG LaCrosse and new 2008 Malibu are not on the same platform (Malibu: Epsilon I; LaCrosse Epsilon II) let alone sharing body panels. Any similarities are illusions.

The LaCrosse Super's MSRP is already $32,605 which is close to the CTS's base price. The LaCrosse Super has more HP than the base CTS also. With the NG LaCrosse moving further upscale, why would you put useless restrictions on the LaCrosse that currently don't exist to begin with? Why should the Buick LaCrosse care what the CTS is doing when it should be focusing on its competitor instead: ES350? The NG LaCrosse will partially overlap the CTS in price depending on features, options, etc. It will also require a competitively powerful powertrain to successfully compete against the LaCrosse's intended rivals. But they are each a different type of vehicle in different premium segments.

The current Lucerne will be disappearing a year or so after the NG LaCrosse comes out in 2009 (The G-Platform Lucerne goes out of production in 2010)... so no overlap within Buick. The NG LaCrosse and Impala/Malibu replacement would overlap as much as the Accord & TL or Camry & ES350... not much (if done successfully). Completely different target markets.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/gm-europ...cars/1790507968

How would marketing go if GM made hybrid technology standard instead of optional? Not in the line of an exclusive "Prius" vehicle like Volt, but just manufactured all Malibus, Auras, Cobalts, etc with the mild or two-mode hybrid systems. If all Malibu's had some form of hybrid technology, would that turn buyers away or would it actually improve Chevrolet's image in general?

Pictures please!

The reason for comparison between FWD & RWD is because the NG Impala will be one or the other. We're trying to understand which would have a more successful outcome and why. I have no hatred towards RWD. I just don't believe it's a better choice for GM in this situation. However, something happened last night... I went to a family-held New Year's party last night. My sister-in-law was there. Breakdown for my Sister-in-law and her husband: Both early forties Successful careers: She's an accountant; He's an electrical construction superintendent Large house overlooking the bay 3 children - two away in college, one in high school. two cars: Hers: 2003 Nissan Altima 3.5 SE; His: 200? GMC Envoy XL The interest lies in the nearly paid for Altima. What is she interested in and why? I asked her a few questions specifically regarding this topic to find out what she thinks. Her responses actually surprised me a little and didn't exactly follow my own logic. Interview Q:Does she like her car? A: Yes. She loves it. Q:Price excluded, would she consider the larger Maxima when trading in the Altima or just another Altima? A:She stated the Maxima has a really good reputation, but she doesn't want a bigger car. The greatest downfall for the Altima is its turning radius. A larger car would be worse and she doesn't want that. She needs a car that's reasonably maneuverable and fits into regular sized parking spaces. Q:Would she consider an SUV/CUV/Van/Wagon at trade-in or just another similarly sized sedan? A:Similarly-sized sedan. Her husband's vehicle covers the needs that an SUV/CUV/Van/Wagon would address. Q: Would it matter if the mid-sized car is FWD or RWD? A: Her husband would probably prefer RWD, but as a woman, she prefers FWD. FWD handles more predictably than RWD and it's naturally better in adverse weather conditions. She doesn't want a sports car, but likes a sporty vehicle. Since it's her car, she will get what she wants. Well, I completely forgot and ignored the "two car" family in my arguments. That changes the dynamics quite a bit. The other aspect ignored was "the woman's" choice. Women hold the final vote for the majority of new car purchases (I think it was last published @ 70% or so.) Gay or straight, C&G's member base is mostly made up by men. If married/partnered, there are 2+ vehicles usually in the family. IMO this is an excellent example of what GM is up against for the Impala in the US. I'm sure this scenario duplicates over thousands of Baby-Boomer families in the US. He won't give up the utility of an SUV (typical RWD car market buyer) and she doesn't want or need (kids are gone) a car that's bigger, with the expectation of her husband's SUV to continue supporting those occasional needs (when the family is in town, grandchildren visit, moving furniture, etc.) So... reply & responses? Where does that leave GM with the Impala? What's the solution?

It just as well for us to forget about the G-platform. It's dead after 2010. The only plant manufacturing G (Hamtramck) will be converted to Delta/Epsilon II production after that.

A separate (rambling) thought regarding RWD vs FWD: If the Avenger/Sebring were as good as the Camry or Accord, would those drivers buy the Avenger/Sebring or the Charger/300? Why am I asking? I am aware that Avalon, Maxima, and Taurus sales are not setting charts on fire, but if you take into account each brand's approach to the mid-size/full-size market it looks much better. Camry to Avalon - Can you see a Camry driver trading up to Avalon? I can. Maintains brand loyalty. Allows a Camry driver something different to lease after 3 years if the Camry is still within the same life cycle. Similar can be said for Fusion/Taurus or Altima/Maxima. Not as much so but you get the picture. Total sales between mid & full size holds the market pretty well for each brand. Now, you get to Avenger/Charger and Sebring/300. Sales combined aren't great. Do you see Avenger/Sebring drivers trading up to Charger/300? Do you see them appealing to similar markets at all? Are they just alternatives to each other? Is this really the best market approach? When Camry or Accord drivers come in for trade-in, the first thing that pops into their mind isn't whether or not the next car is FWD/RWD. They look at features, content, reliability, space (interior & trunk), etc. In the same light, any car that Chevrolet makes must not only compete against its direct competitor, but also the vehicle intended for that loyal customer to “move-up” to. Original question - If the Avenger/Sebring were as good as the Camry or Accord, would those drivers buy the Avenger/Sebring or the Charger/300? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Intrepid/Concorde have done better in the comparison? In context to GM, if Chevrolet built a better Charger, would Malibu drivers want to trade in for it? Would the majority of Camry/Accord drivers? Would Avalon and Taurus owners? Would a class-leading FWD/AWD Impala do better?

There's nothing wrong with G-platform overhangs or wheelbase. The G platform can go under 200 inches and the current Lucerne's overhangs are no greater than the "modern-platform" Avalon. The difference in length between the two is found in the wheelbase.

Ack! Thank goodness you're still alive! Yikes! Here's to a successful recovery! Get to feeling better.

If I had it my way, Chevrolet would have both a FWD large sedan (Epsilon II based or G-platform) and a RWD flagship sedan. I'm strictly going off the impression from the articles indicating GM is trying to decide between one or the other. I've considered the exact same question and can only come up with the same conclusion as TvsG. Oshawa will continue to produce both FWD & RWD.

Honestly, that's a very good point.

I see this segment growing since the Accord has joined the full-size market. Either the Accord's sales will drop, or it's a testament that Baby-boomers and current families want more space. New and growing Families will always need practical midsized sedans, but families who can afford more will want comfortable surroundings without losing practicality. Don't forget the Maxima and Avalon are getting old and are being replaced/repositioned with the next generation. Where will Chevrolet stand then? Chevrolet's competitors aren't standing still. I agree a vehicle like the Lucerne would make a good flagship Chevrolet.

Like it has been for the past 10 years? or like it is at almost all of Chevrolet's competitors? Different does not mean successful... but does mean expensive. Most of Chevrolet's competitors use the same platform to produce two unique vehicles to attract different type of buyers. You're looking for the Malibu and Impala to use different platforms for mainstream vehicles. A more sensible and focused FWD premium Impala would be appealing to a large market audience if executed well. It would probably sell at the same volume or greater since there is an established market. I always felt that LeSabre's market in the 1990s belonged under Chevrolet. Chevrolet should have had the "best-selling" large sedan in America, not Buick. It's Chevrolet's job to take on Toyota, not Buick. It's Chevrolet's job to take on Ford, not Buick. It's Chevrolet's job to take on Hyundai, not Buick. Now Chevrolet can finally take care of its own market segments and quit requiring assistance from the other brands to pick up the slack. As for LaCrosse's job, I believe the NG LaCrosse will remain an alternative to other vehicles in this price class but will not be marketed as a direct competitor to the Avalon, Taurus, or Azera. It will be targeting near-luxury vehicles and more image conscious buyers.

We’ll have to agree to completely disagree and see what GM decides. My argument strictly stands like this: Chevrolet should be competing against Avalon, Maxima, Azera, & Taurus. Those buyers would consider a $32k FWD Impala if it’s class-leading. The NG Malibu should not be used to cover the FWD mid-sized and premium large FWD segments. Many full-line mainstream brands have separate entries for the two segments: Ford has Fusion & Taurus Toyota has Camry & Avalon Nissan has Altima & Maxima Then there are the non-full line-up brands: Honda has the compact Civic and large Accord Mazda only has the midsized Mazda6 Mercury has the Milan & Sable Volkswagen has the large-compact Jetta & midsized Passat Hyundai has Sonata & Azera Kia Optima & Amanti Finally, we have Chevrolet’s greatest threat and competition (sarcasm) Dodge: Dodge has the midsize Avenger and large-ish RWD Charger The above vehicles will all be cross-shopped by that one NG Malibu. Why would the best selling Brand in the US try to produce only one FWD sedan to successfully compete against all of the above FWD vehicles? People can nit-pick why they don’t like each of the sedans above, but would a single large FWD Malibu be able to target the varied segments any better? The result would be a compromised vehicle trying to cover almost $20k of market territory ($17k Fusions to $37k Avalons and Passats.) It’ll be too big (for compact/midsize buyers), and too heavy (in 4-cyl form.) A RWD premium mid-sized Impala would be too expensive to assist as an alternative to the “large Malibu” and just cover the upper spectrum which may or may not consider it since it’s not a full-sized sedan. I personally believe a focused midsized sedan on Epsilon II spanning $19k-$27k and a focused premium large sedan on Epsilon II spanning $25k-$33k would be far more beneficial to Chevrolet. If GM’s fortunes turn around after a few years, GM could add a RWD premium Chevrolet sedan as a halo vehicle (Caprice SS or what ever.) But first, Chevrolet needs to successfully compete in the existing mainstream segments that Chevrolet’s competitors currently dominate.

A large FWD Buick should replace the DTS' current position. It should not compete with Avalon. However, Buick will not be getting a DTS replacement since the Lucerne will be going to Zeta. The LaCrosse will be moving to near-luxury territory (whether midsized or large... more than likely midsized.) For the Avalon, Maxima, Accord market... A Chevrolet Large sedan would be the appropriate competitor. These are all premium mainstream/mass market sedans. Very appropriate for a flagship Chevrolet; Very unappropriate for a near luxury/mid-luxury brand like Buick.

Not quite... His argument has been bouncing back and forth between comparisons of the current (2008) Malibu in size and the current Impala. In the process, he's attempting to justify using the NG Malibu to replace both the current Malibu and the Impala. My argument is there is a need in Chevrolet's line-up for a car the size of the current (2008) Malibu, and the current (2008) Impala. Chevrolet needs a midsize sedan and a large sedan... not one sedan to cover both markets. If the NG Malibu becomes "Impala-sized" then what will fill the gap between the Cobalt and the Impala-sized Malibu? Seriously... could you picture Chevrolet's current line-up without the Malibu? It would be ridiculous. Not everyone wants a large sedan. Not everyone wants a mid-sized sedan.

I think GM is in the process of changing that perception. $25k LeSabre days are over.