VenSeattle

You probably stumbled upon this since you mentioned it, but it's an interesting FYI... Chevrolet bought General Motors. The Corporate name General Motors remained after the (rather hostile) take-over by Durant and the operations of Chevrolet were converted into a division.

I thought Jaguar had the least powerful V8 in this class? New Jag XF (STS competitor) 300hp naturally aspirated 420hp supercharged

yeah... it caught me off guard too. I think it was actually the Al Gore that was hunting Manbearpig... Gotta love South Park... There's a nuclear device where?

Eh... I came out Obama on top, but I support Hillary. I did the "Comparison of Positions" between the two. Not sure how Obama came out above Hillary based on their standings. I went back and plugged in all of Hillary's standings based on the comments provided for a test, and it came up with Al Gore on top (of all people...) Hmmm....

I'm now confused... That's the complete opposite logic everyone here praised GM for with SIGMA. No more Cadillacs compromised by needs (such as cost cutting) from other divisions... The reason the current BLS isn't fit for the US market remember? It's a compromised product, and not just because it's FWD... it's on Epsilon. A low-cost/high-volume platform. Now you're saying it's best for Pontiac, Holden, or (if comes to worst) Chevrolet to develop Cadillac's 3-series fighter... Whuh!?! Cadillac requires built in expense to be competitive with the other luxury brands. If those needs are not met then it's just more money wasted on a warmed over/compromised Cadillac that's got the underpinnings for another Camry-crowd attractor. It would never be viewed as a competent rival to the 3-series, IS, G35/37, C350, etc.

Last I checked suicide can be honorable in Japanese culture, so I don't understand your association between the two. I won't pretend to understand the culture entirely, but a western perspective on suicide can not be used to successfully evaluate their culture. The fundamentals are far too different.

Well... I also hope this subject remains civil. Here's mine... I believe that organized religion has served a very valuable purpose over the millennia in organizing and unifying society. It has provided education, direction, self-purpose, culture, etc and preserved it throughout time. As good as this has been from a "big picture" perspective, I think society will continue to evolve. Like "multiple gods" gave way to "one god", "the teachings of "one god" will eventually develop into a philosophy to living life without the piety for a superior being. Despite the knowledge and advancements humankind has achieved, I fear majority of earth's population devote most of their time and life to not living. They're in constant preparation (whether they realize it or not) of what will happen to them after they die. If mankind were to eventually rationalize the existence of nothing after death, the amount of energy and effort devoted to preserving life, improving life, maintaining life, and advancing life would be exponential. Until then, majority of humankind will continue to take their own lives in vain without giving the few years alive the attention, value, and respect it deserves.

Well, if what PCS says is true and it does actually come to pass... is it bullying or just trying to prepare everyone for reality?

Here's my rant... It's somewhat cryptic and generalized but people are getting heated around here... and it's a good a time as any to get this off my chest. I think a problem that several mods,members,admins,etc all have at the moment is that GM is in the process of making changes (some are probably dramatic) and we're all having difficulty understanding and adjusting to the logic driving the changes (both business wise and ethical.) It is not one person (member, mod, admin, etc) making these decisions... least of all the staff here at C&G. We're all watching the train pass with the rest of you... whether it wrecks or not is unknown. C&G has always had an outspoken audience for GM of old. Not just reliving the good-old days, but also in trying to modernize GM's legacy offerings to be legitimate vehicles in today's market. The problem is, the market has changed. Can a brand change to survive in today's market? If it can, is it the same brand or did it sell its soul in the process? Oldsmobile did all of that and the price was too great. Should all of GM's other brands attempt the same? Honestly, would a SC 4-cyl RWD compact coupe or sedan say Pontiac? Isn't it the farthest thing from a V8 Trans-Am muscle car? If people are willing to accept those changes to allow Pontiac to survive then what other heirloom vehicles are people willing to sacrifice for a brand to have a chance of survival in the 21st Century? The G8 is nothing like any Pontiac that's existed in my lifetime. That's over 30 years. But... I do think it's a good match for Pontiac. Is it enough? No. what would be enough? Is there anything that would be enough? Chevrolet's "dowdy" Caprice & "modern" Lumina were Chevrolet's flagships when I started noticing Chevrolet. I gagged when looking at them. Only in a certain trim did the Caprice look alright (Impala SS) but it didn't help the rest of Chevrolet's line-up from looking cheap and cobbled together. Corsica, Beretta, Lumina, Cavalier etc... were far from class leading in many respects. Many on C&G were Chevrolet fans while these cars sat on dealer's lots. Considering the dramatic improvement of Chevrolet's line-up, why turn your back on the brand now? Regardless if the Impala stays FWD or disappears altogether, Chevrolet is in far better shape than it has been in decades. GM's survival and success doesn't ride on a single platform... there's no "K-car" that will destroy or make GM. GM's legs are deeply entrenched in dozens of markets across the world that form the foundation of this company. With the demand for alternative fuel sources increasing across the globe, fuel efficiency is top priority. That has less to do with any platform, but with engineering capabilities. Like it or not, GME is leading in that area. European manufacturers in general have been researching alternatives for decades. Infrastructures for the delivery of many alternative fuels are further along in Europe than in the US. Those markets have provided the experience of what can work and what doesn't. A thought to throw out… What if the UV8 and certain Zeta models were canceled because of such a formerly unbelievable idea. What if GM now plans to make a line of flagship vehicles based of the Sequel or Hy-Wire strategies? Autonomy skateboard flagships coming our way? Who knows at the moment… None of us know everything that's going on but we need to keep our opinions, assumptions, and fears in perspective as things begin to change and adjust. We each have the right to agree or disapprove of the changes, but we shouldn't take those aggressions out on each other. We shouldn't become so personal where a member, mod, admin, etc is viewed as the enemy. GM was not, does not, and never will be run strictly by one individual's vision. Even Durant was voted off the island more than once. We're all customers or potential customers. As a business GM will continue with the goal to provide products that the market will buy (or products they don't know they want to buy yet. ) There's always hope for anything and everything... but for the love of all things, direct that energy toward GM and not at a particular member, mod, admin, or C&G as a whole.

How would you like getting service at your local Buick-Saturn-GMC dealer?

4 years later and Oldsmobile's phase out continues to haunt GM and buyers. The sting lingers long after the death stroke is delivered. IMO, the negative perception from killing another brand would be best avoided if at all possible. 2008 will be hard enough for GMNA without self-destructive tendencies being acted upon.

My orphan? Last I checked, there have been at least a half dozen articles recently published discussing future Buick styling and line-up expansion. NG Enclave already being tested? Buick will have the Riviera concept to show at NAIAS this year as well. I simply do the same for Buick as many are doing for Pontiac: stating the brand's virtues, hoping for the best, and continue purchasing Buicks. And... Hyundai would never be an alternative if Buick disappears. My first stop would be at Infiniti or Mercedes-Benz. I just recently went to my dealer for service. It was nice to see a $30k G6 convertible, $33k LaCrosse Super, and a $65k GMC Denali sharing the showroom floor. The majority of products sold at B-P-GMC are not cheap. Now if the franchises appropriately represented their products. I can only hope Bellevue B-P-GMC will finally remodel in 2008 as they've promised over and over again.

DING DING DING!

Only the one? The wildfire suggests more. If the growth in China is truly one of GM's hallmarks, then Buick must be preserved... if only to assist with maintaining the dealership franchises with GMC in the US until Buick's line-up is completely unified and revamped in both markets.

I didn't know that. I thought GM converted the Daewoo franchises to Chevrolet, so I assumed Chevrolet belonged to GMAP. Interesting. Makes sense considering the pending changes that have been implied.

The imitation wood trim in the LaCrosse was recently updated. The stuff in the LaCrosse Super looks even more convincing than in the regular trims. I've noticed in GM cars that the darker (Brown/gray) tones tend to look more realistic than the reddish tones.

SAAB has also been rolled into GME.

Edit: okay... I went back and reread the posts. We'll have to wait and see. Based on PCS's comments... the only way I can see the STS/DTS replacement and Lucerne being cancelled at LGR is if those two are built in China and then imported.

Yeah, sorry about that. I didn't mean it to come across that way. I hope you know I was just referring to a "compact" entry.

I'm wondering if it's all but certain that Buick will receive a compact sedan now (off Delta II probably) along with a compact CUV. If GM is beginning to focus on smaller cars, that's the direction to go. They could both be sold in the US and China with no problem. If Pontiac is actually to be phased out, Buick would have to receive a compact line-up to compensate.

DUDE! Oldsmobile had 5 vehicles and 6 separate body-styles (Alero was coupe & sedan) when they sold that whopping 265,878 cars in 2000. Buick discontinued 3 vehicles in 2007 and now only has 2 sedans and one CUV. I say sales are pretty damn good for just three vehicles... especially when comparing them to Oldsmobile. You pretend to be ignorant yet still purposely selective with your references trying to associate points that are not related. Buick is technically part of Pontiac & GMC for the points that matter. Oldsmobile was standing olone. Get over it!

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: I just had to quote this to prevent you from removing it later on.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: I'll one up you though... real men play in the mud despite the grass. Please tell me this topic is in the lounge?

GM has a habit of multiple groups performing overlapping development/research. Perhaps something won out that makes the current NS still the best bet? Maybe tests pairing it up with the developing hybrid systems came out on top?

Would you actually compare the last gen LS (or any previous gen-LS) to the new one? The new LS is actually in a completely different segment than the old one. It's Lexus' first large sedan to compete directly against 7-series, A8s, S-Classes, etc. The prev-gen LSs were actually in a segment below, and their MSRPs showed it. I would picture the Park Avenue (although bigger than prev-gen LSs) fitting quite nicely in the segment formerly dominated by the Infiniti Q45, Lexus LS, budget buy S430's, etc. Oldsmoboi's segregation of Lexus is a perfect illustration to why GM needs more than one Luxury brand. It would compromise Cadillac's image, prestige, and vision to attempt covering all segments in the near/mid-luxury territory. Leave ultra-luxury and exotics exclusive to the Cadillac Crest but use SAAB, HUMMER, Buick, and Cadillac to "hone in" and target the various (and still growing) near/mid-luxury markets. Some segments (like near luxury sedans) are so polar-opposites depending on the offering, that having multiple entries wouldn't really be considered overlap: (Saab 9-5, Cadillac CTS, Buick LaCrosse 2.0 for example.)