VenSeattle

If I were to buy one of these three, it would be the Mercedes. Nothing against the CTS, I just love the looks of the new C-class.

+1 - although I would still need to test drive both of them before a final decision.

Happy Birthday guy!

Pontiac has zero brand image, they can't move G8s for $30k, they won't make it trying to go above Corvette. Cadillac can't match Porsche or Maserati either, the XLR flop is an example. GM right now doesn't have what it takes to play in that high end league with the Euro exotics. I'd like to see Cadillac try, but that is so far down the priority list, and unless they fund it properly, it will fail.

No one is talking about right now.

The future of Buick lies with small to midsize vehicles. The mistake GM made in the past was all the full size vehicles with no focus on small premium. LaCrosse, Lucerne, Enclave are all full size vehicles, and full size sedans are a dying market. Town Car, Deville, LeSabre, Grand Marquis, etc worked in the 90s but times and demographics have changed.

Delta II, Epsilon II and the Vue platform are where they need to go.

The days of every brand having a large sedan (or multiple large sedans) are over... for sure. But there is a market, and will always be a market, for a large sedan. BMW 7-series, Lexus LS, & Mercedes S-Class are not going anywhere... regardless of how low volume they reach. Buick could successfully sell a single large sedan on any number of stretched platforms in GM's stable. Cadillac should also receive a large flagship sedan to compete directly against tier-1 luxury brands.

Chevrolet Malibus and Impalas could easily remain focused on different buyers as midsize sedans (FWD/RWD/AWD or whatever.)

I'd love to see Pontiac get out of the 'me-too' thing with Chevy...a lot of that comes from the dealers, trying to compete w/ Chevy, no doubt (rebadges like the G3, G5, Torrent)..

I agree... which is one of the reasons I think Pontiac could/should actually be positioned over Chevrolet/Corvette... such as take on Porsche/ Maserati.

That would leave Cadillac open to eventually foray into the exotics like Lamborghini & Ferrari when/if the day comes.... Cien anyone?

WTF???

DETROIT (Reuters) - Toyota Motor Corp on Friday said it was cutting North American production of its best-selling cars including the Camry and Corolla sedans in response to rising inventories and a slump in sales.

Toyota will idle assembly plants for additional days in December and January in Georgetown, Kentucky; Princeton, Indiana; and Fremont, California, spokesman Mike Goss said.

Toyota, like its smaller rivals, has been caught out by the collapse in demand for cars and trucks in the United States, a downturn that accelerated in October and November amid tightening credit and deepening consumer uncertainty.

Despite a high-profile zero-percent financing offer, Toyota's U.S. sales tumbled 34 percent in November.

Toyota had previously said it would shut down its U.S. assembly plants on December 22 and December 23. Now, with the exception of a Texas truck plant, it is idling its factories for additional days.

The Kentucky plant, which makes the Camry, Avalon and Solara, will be shut for nine additional days in December and January, Goss said.

Toyota's NUMMI plant in Fremont, which makes the Corolla, will be shut down for 10 more days in December and January.

The Indiana plant has two assembly lines. One, making the Sienna minivan, will be idled for six additional days in December and January. The other, making the Sequoia SUV, will be idled for one additional day this month.

Inventories have built up at the automaker famed for running a lean and cost-efficient production system where parts are delivered just in time to be installed in vehicles on the assembly line.

Measured by the number of sales needed to clear inventory, Toyota's unsold stock of vehicles has doubled from 45 days one year earlier to near 90 days for some vehicles now.

Toyota's plant in San Antonio, Texas, was idled for three months until early November as the automaker ran down an excess supply of its full-size Tundra pickup truck.

Toyota continues to pay its U.S. nonunion workers during the time they are not employed on the assembly line because of plant shutdowns.

A similar practice at General Motors Corp under its agreement with the United Auto Workers union has come in for sharp criticism as GM and other U.S. automakers seek a $34 billion federal bailout.

The UAW said this week it would scrap that controversial "jobs bank" provision of its contract with U.S. automakers.

Ven, I think if we sat down for a few hours we could devise a killer lineup for both brands.

With focus.

I actually do too.

I have no desire for either brand to disappear, but I am 100% against either of them fighting for the same buyers ever again. Their product line-up can not be so similar to where they're always looking over their backs to make sure not to step on each other's tail.

The Buick brand should be free to grow where Buick would be able to successfully compete. Pontiac too. Finding that perfect harmony between the two brands would guarantee their long term survival.

Just don't think "small" with Pontiac or Buick... They must have completely separate, viable, justifiable existences. Pick a true market for each of them that they could attach themselves to and dominate without overlap with another GM brand. Pontiac taking on the "likes" of Porsche would keep Pontiac from overlapping... it would fit the "premium" expectations of the mid-tier trio and give Pontiac a mission that's true to the brand.

There's one thing GM has always done well... that's build expensive vehicles. If Pontiac had Boxter/911/Panamera fighters... those would be vehicles no other GM brand could honestly provide without being outside of its brand character.

What if Pontiac received a Corvette-based coupe and sedan? To counter the Porsche 911 & Panamera? or perhaps a performance sedan/coupe along the likes of the CLS?

you have to make sure Pontiac's niche doesn't overlap with Chevrolet either...

Here's what I'm saying... GM decided against transforming "Corvette" into a brand of 2-3 high performance vehicles. However, all may not be lost since the "performance brand" is up for rethinking. If GMC & Buick are to become Premium/near/mid-lux brands... Pontiac's high-perfomance brand could become what GM decided against for Corvette. It would be in good company as halo vehicles for GM's premium outlet.

Sounds feasible, but a couple of things:

The CUV below Equinox will replace the HHR. HHR will not be remodeled IIRC.

What are the 7-8 models you intend for Cadillac?

If Pontiac is to become like Corvette is to Chevrolet, then Pontiac will not have 3-4 models. Buick can sell the volume compact cars. Pontiac will not be about Volume. In fact, for the sake of a halo vehicle for the BPG franchises, I'd prefer Pontiac to actually receive a platform-mate to the Corvette instead of becoming some type of Scion fighter.

Even Chevy is allowed to have a Camaro (Buick GNX?) along side the "Corvette" niche.

Yes there is.

That's Pontiac's job (in the same showroom).

That sort of duplication just can't take place any longer. It would unfocus both brands.

Not knocking the performance Buicks of the past, but it simply cannot be part of Buick's mission now.

Elegance in an affordable package has to be what Buick is all about. Classy but attainable, with bulletproof reliability and excellent resale. Luxury that makes sense in every metric.

That's not to say that they can be under-powered, or lacking in handling prowess, just that performance is not the main focus for the brand.

And absolutely not for the marketing, so no GNs or T-types.

And, a tight focus on Park Avenue and Riviera caliber style.

How do we know that it's Pontiac's job or that it's duplication when we don't know which direction Pontiac will be taken? If Pontiac is to be limited to "niche" status don't expect performance Delta IIs, performance Epsilon IIs, performance Alphas, and performance Zetas... that's not a niche brand by any means but a full car line-up.

Even if Pontiac gets a couple of those, there will be room for a premium-priced performance vehicle for Buick...

I think you will be seeing the small cars you are asking for, but they may not wear the Saturn badge.

Give Pontiac the next-gen Delta II Opel Astra family (sedan, coupe, convertible, and wagon) while giving Buick the SAAB 9-3 Delta II family...

You have at least one too many cars stuffed into one area. Either a Delta II based sedan on or a SWB EPII, but not both; Chevy doesn't even have that many cars stuffed between two sizes. I'd be in favor of giving Buick SWB and LWB EPII sedans.

That's fine, but GM is already developing Delta II vehicles for Opel, SAAB, & Buick... I figure at least one of the non-Chevrolet Delta IIs will have to make their way to the US considering at least two of them were scheduled to do so up until last week (under Saturn and SAAB)...

And remember, Buick's NA line-up is consolidating with China's. China will have Delta II, SWB Epsilon II & LWB Epsilon II... on top of Zeta.

I think Pontiac should be getting the niche vehicles you listed. If Buick has an Alpha, how are they going to differentiate it enough vs. the Cadillac Alpha without making it cheap? The Electra is an interesting idea, but if Cadillac is getting a Volt also, then again, Buick doesn't need one as well.

Well, my train of thought was based on that PCS already stated Buick will be getting Alpha. Take that for what you will...

Anyway. Differentiate? Do you believe a luxury Riviera Coupe is a carbon copy of a compact Cadillac 3-series fighter? I personally don't think it would be difficult to differentiate the two.

Too broad. Buick needs to be tightly focused on mid-lux...unless all those small cars are going to be incredibly luxurious inside. Which GM is too dumb to do...

Buick will probably start near-luxury and top out at mid-luxury. A compact Delta II-based sedan similar to the 1st gen TSX (with Sedan/coupe/wagon versions) would be a perfectly fine entry level family of cars for Buick. That's what I'm suggesting the Delta II cars to be.

Buick should stay out of performance - forever.

Electra is a no-brainer. Needs to happen.

No Zetas, unless it is a production version of Velite with a DI V6.

Buick has a justified performance heritage just like all other traditional GM brands. There's no reason why the GNX, Grand National, or T-Type trim couldn't be reborn.

Buick's badge can't support a $40-48k sedan, and that is Cadillac's range. They need to keep the flagship closer to the Genesis or the MKS price, $35-40,000, low $40s fully loaded. The STS doesn't sell as a Cadillac, turning it into a Buick will make it sell worse. Big cars don't sell well, Buick would be best off making a luxury version of the Cruze for $25-30,000 and a luxury Malibu for $28-35,000. Small premium is a segment that will grow and the Jetta, TSX, and Mini are the only ones in it right now before going to 3-series/C-class prices.

Buick is not a direct competitor to Hyundai. Chevrolet is. If anything, give the G8 to Chevrolet to undercut the Genesis. As for luxury Hyundais, they need to undercut everyone in the premium/luxury market to encourage people to check them out. Buick can charge more than Chevrolet & Hyundai, but still needs to charge less, than say, a comparable Lexus, Infiniti, or Lincoln.

A flaw in your logic is "Cadillac's Range." $40k-$48k is not Cadillac Range... Compact - Entry level, then yes, but that is not a range owned exclusively by Cadillac. The problem here is that Cadillac is not charging Cadillac prices. Cadillac is charging BUICK prices for a BMW 5-series/E-Class sized competitor. THAT'S THE PROBLEM. The CTS should be priced (accompanied by the expected level of content) more closely to the German competitors. It's not. That's why Cadillac and Buick are bumping up against each other in pricing.

If Cadillac demanded the market price for a mid-sized luxury car ($50k-$70k), Buick's $40k-$48k premium-large sedan would not be overlapping. A comparably sized large-luxury car by Cadillac should be nowhere close to Buick's price range. Cadillac should be able to charge $75k-$110k for an S-Class competitor.

BUICK

Compact (Delta II):$22k - $30k (3 body styles create a wider price range)

Midsize (SWB Epsilon II): $27k - $34k

Premium Midsize/Large (LWB Epsilon II): $31k - $39k

Large RWD Luxury sedan (Zeta or Sigma): $40k - $48k

CADILLAC

Compact (Alpha): $35k - $50k

Midsize (Sigma): $50k - $70k

Large (Zeta/Sigma+): $75k - $110k

Cadillac needs to provide more and charge more. Period. That will allow Chevrolet and Buick to spread out and assist with preventing overlap. A person shopping for a $45k compact sport/luxury car will not cross-shop a large luxury Buick. Just like a person shopping for a SWB Zeta Impala for $30k will not be looking at an Epsilon II-based Buick Regal.

With Congress still yet to decide the fate of GM's return to profitability plan, Buick's role has potentially transformed from a 'niche' brand in the USA back into a core brand… a core brand that could potentially offer a full line of cars with the possibility of a crossover or two when all is said and done.

So, what should Buick's line-up look like when all the pieces fall into place? Several suggestions have been tossed around in other related topics, but let's try to consolidate our future visions of Buick's line-up here. A wishlist line-up if you will... I'll start:

(Yes, I'm borrowing from some suggestions already given because I agree with them )

CUVs

• Opel Antara becomes Buick Rendezvous
• Buick Enclave remains

Cars

• NG Opel Astra or NG SAAB 9-3 (both Delta products) becomes a Buick Skylark or Skyhawk line-up of compact vehicles (sedan, coupe, & wagon.) (offer hybrid version) --- This is, of course, if GM decides to scrap the Delta II-based Buick already in development for China.
• Opel Insignia become Buick Regal (SWB Epsilon II) (offer hybrid version)
• Buick LaCrosse (LWB Epsilon II) remains. Could be renamed to Invicta. (offer hybrid version)
• If G8 imports cease, instead import Buick Zeta-based Park Avenue to replace Lucerne. (perhaps share the assembly line with Camaro in Oshawa) Either that or give Buick a Sigma-based sedan to replace Lucerne and built at LGR. The Sigma Buick could be built in China as well.

Specialty/Niche Vehicles

• Volt-based hybrid called Electra
• Alpha-based coupe/convertible called Riviera (offer hybrid version)
• Camaro-based coupe - Buick Grand National (gotta help prop-up Zeta production at Oshawa somehow.)

Link to charts

                        SALES                         YTD SALES         
                 Nov     Nov            
                2008    2007     % Chg          2008     2007    % Chg
    
Ferrari          137     133       3.0         1,479    1,511     -2.1 
Maserati         158     305     -48.2         2,245    2,204      1.9
Bentley          207     340     -39.1         2,540    3,678    -30.9
Rolls Royce       39      37       5.4           378      293     29.0 
Maybach            9      14     -35.7           113      154    -26.6

WSJ.com

November Market Share by Manufacturer:

20.5% - General Motors Corp. (includes SAAB)

17.4% - Toyota Motor Sales USA Inc.

16.4% - Ford Motor Company (includes Volvo)

11.4% - Chrysler LLC

10.2% - American Honda Motor Co Inc.

6.2% - Nissan North America Inc.

4.6% - Hyundai Motor America (includes Kia Motors America Inc.)

4.4% - Volkswagen of America Inc. (includes Audi of America Inc.)

2.6% - BMW of North America Inc. (includes Mini)

1.9% - Mazda Motor of America Inc.

1.9% - Mercedes-Benz

1.8% - Subaru of America Inc.

0.7% - Mitsubishi Motors N A, Inc.

0.4% - American Suzuki Motor Corp.

0.4% - Jaguar/Land Rover

0.2% - Porsche Cars NA Inc.

How are small, 4-cylinder cars consider niche cars? That's a huge market, not a niche market. Small, RWD, 4-cylinder cars would be a niche market.

Isn't Scion still considered a niche brand? They have three models and won't come close to its 150k production cap this year. Check over at Suzuki as well. They won't hit 100k in US sales this year.

I'd say Pontiac's brand image is in worse shape than both of the others when it comes to marketing small 4-cyl cars.

Even strong 4-cyl brands aren't selling well this year, like VW...

Jetta sedan/wagon have only sold 89k this year.

Golf/Rabbit/GTI/R32 have only sold around 34k this year.

Sigma costs more, though it is better. They could do a V6 Zeta car for low $30s to $42k like the Genesis is priced. Sigma or whatever Cadillac goes to in the future has to be exclusive.

Lexus and Inifiniti platorms are not entirely exclusive... although they don't share everything with other brands.

I don't see a "cost" reason for not offering a $40k-$48k Sigma-based Buick flagship if Cadillac is able to offer the V6 CTS & STS between $33k-$50k.

The Genesis sedan will not remain that cheap for long (expect the price to climb each year and with each engine upgrade)... if it even survives.

Besides all of this, Congress is about to give GM's plan the thumbs down, it seems they have been swamped with constituent's Mail/E-Mail who don't want to see the government help the big 3 in any way, shape or form.

In that case... can you elaborate on this "Plan B" that has been mentioned if the government decides not to help out?

ooooohhhhhhhhhhh kay............. so much for the non-partisan...

Body looks very Malibu like, with 5-series wannabe tail lights.

I don't mind that though, because I see Buick's future as making a fancy version of the Cruze, Malibu, with the Enclave and Zeta sedan, and a fancy Vue/Equinox if GMC doesn't get one. This will let Buick operate in the $26-40,000 range offering a step up from Chevy, without investing tremendous amounts in R&D. Then Cadillac is all rear drive on it's own platforms, $35k and up.

If Buick gets the Zeta Sedan, prices will be over $40k. The Lucerne SUPER is currently priced at $41k.

I personally vote for Buick receiving a car on Cadillac's SIGMA platform... such as a version of the Cadillac STS.