VenSeattle

That's my point... the Highlander is based on the Camry platform too! They'll have two mid-size CUVs off the same platform on the same showroom floor. We just learned Toyota will be adding a 4-cyl back to the Highlander to boost sales... Toyota doesn't realize that the only thing this will accomplish is that it'll steal sales from the RAV4.... while the Venza (if modestly successful) will steal sales from both the 4 & 6-cyl Highlanders and RAV4s.

There are sooo many things wrong with this...

Give us a production version of the Buick Riviera concept with E-flex system. GM needs to exand this technology into premium markets. A luxury E-Flex coupe would make an excellent image builder for Buick and a premium alternative/step-up to the Chevrolet VOLT. I'm not going to give up on this idea... It just seems perfectly natural.

Funny you posted this... I, all of a sudden, have seen dozens of 1st-gen Infiniti I30s all over the place. I pass two or three of them a day now, and they are different colors from the day before so it's not the same group of two or three over and over. Rather odd. They're all in excellent condition. It's like they were corralled somewhere for years and then sold in mass to local dealers through auction.

I posted this in Chrysler's sales topic... thought it'd be appropriate here...

Moltar is very correct. Amazingly, the last gen Century and Regal were well executed and successful in their intention. Neither of the vehicles appealed to the same market. They were rarely cross-shopped. Although very similar, "deal-beakers" abounded between them... The Century was conservatively styled with an upright chrome grille, came with a column shifter w/bench seat standard, and only an efficient (but not very powerful) V6. The Regal came in two-tones, body colored sport grille, trim packages, floor shifter/bucket seats standard, and engine output options (regular & supercharged). Having both in the line-up allowed Buick to "fleet" the Century while keeping the nearly identical Regal exclusive for retail sales. Regal was never pictured as a fleet queen as the Century was because of this. It's one of the reasons why "Regal" isn't considered a damaged name plate for Buick. A similar approach was used by Buick for the LeSabre & Park Avenue actually. The LeSabre remained bench-seat only and naturally aspirated... somewhat of a natural step-up from the Century. The Regal buyers gravitated to the Park Avenue/ PA Ultra and Rivieras. When I was a teen... based on styling alone, I honestly thought the compact Skylark buyers were meant to move up to the B-Body Roadmaster. So, in a way, Buick catered to three types of buyers in the 90's by offering three different lineups - Traditional conservative Buick buyers: Century & LeSabre Younger, status conscious Buick Buyers: Regal, Riviera, & Park Avenue Extraverted value/premium shoppers: Skylark & Roadmaster

couple of edits/comments... I have a feeling the Invicta and the production vehicle both use the same complex stamping process as the Enclave to accomplish the side crease... it's anything but an afterthought. As you like to recommend with Honda and Acurs vehicles, wait until you see it in person. I haven't read any complaints from people who have seen the concept in person...

There is some truth to Micah Pie's post regardless of which forum we're talking about...

You know what, I really appreciated this explanation... Thank you griffon!

Eh... I don't think the overhangs are bad... just the front and rear lights are shallow... And your idea for a BRX looks too much like the CTS wagon... There's a market for both the CTS & SRX.

I'd add to Toyota.vs.GM's response to smk... The Lucerne has sold only 13.2% to Fleets for 2008 compared to its competition: Toyota Avalon (25.6%), Hyundai Azera (25.3%), Nissan Maxima (23.8%), Volkswagen Passat (15.1%), and Chrysler 300 (43.4%). Lucerne is also OUTSELLING ALL OF THEM... The Lucerne is kicking ass comparatively in this market. People are buying them. People are enjoying them. I was at the gas station today with a Lucerne owner in front of me (CXL V8). She bought her Buick at the same dealership as my PA (Bellevue Buick, which is now closed.) She looked to be in her mid-40's. She loves her car. The only problem she has is the same one I have... whether to get the Buick serviced in Kirkland or in Renton... Oh... and the Lucerne is in it's 3rd year... In 2006, Lucerne sold 96,515 units In 2007, Lucerne sold 82,923 units Yes, sales this year are lower, but the Lucerne's market has been hit hard just like trucks and SUVs... still, compared to its competition the Lucerne is doing great. And, as TvsG pointed out on the Enclave... Lucerne's best selling months are in the fall as well... Dude! The LaCrosse is about to be replaced in 6 months!!!! Who the hell cares now?!? And you're comparing 5-Series sales to the Enclave's???? I guess in your quest for comparisons you realized (although still in denial) the Buick Enclave is killing the (redesigned for 2007) BMW X5 in sales... :rotflmao: As TvsG stated... your information is inaccurate. Buick's average buyer's age for 2007 was 55... that only includes a partial year of Enclave sales. The Lucerne and LaCrosse are bringing in a younger audience too. The SUPER models are helping.

I understand what you're saying and agree. Most people compare the Lucerne to the Toyota Avalon, Mercury Sable, or Chrysler 300. These seem the most appropriate due to pricing, size (Avalon & Sable are technically large sedans by interior volume), HP, and features. The Lexus ES350 is probably the highest reaching ideal for a competitor to the Lucerne but only in SUPER trim. In truth, the ES350 is much smaller than the Lucerne and seems more appropriate as the Buick EPS II competitor than the Lucerne. I do like the comparison to the new Lincoln MKS though... I haven't had the time to check one out yet.

I'm actually surprised it's still coming... I think Toyota should have just canceled this vehicle in light of things.

How many more newly remodeled Highlanders can they build? It's already fleeted at 21% just to maintain current volume!!!! :rotflmao: I can't wait to see what happens once the Venza comes out... Talk about showroom cannibalism... :rotflmao:

One of the main reasons GM purchased and operates Daewoo is for small car development. An alliance on top of that acquisition would be ridiculous. Spy shots of the new Chevy CRUZE along with the future sub/micro compacts coming out of Daewoo show a lot of global promise.

The Enclave has attracted new buyers to Buick. It has lowered Buick's buyer average age. It is not fleeted to maintain sales volumes. It is successfully competing against premium import CUVs in an extremely competitive market. It is about to be exported to other markets. It has a higher average acquisition price than the LaCrosse and Lucerne. The Enclave has single handedly proven Buick can successfully compete in premium markets with the right product. It should continue to be successful with the HP increase for 2009 along with a small bump in mpg. As for a near-luxury sedan... Buick has been offering cars in the $30k-$40k range for the past decade. A Buick sedan competing in this price range is not out of character for the Buick brand and is completely appropriate. If the sedan delivers what the class expects (based on market reactions to Enclave as well as previously launched Buick models) there's no reason to believe the sedan will not be well received. You seem to forget, even in today's declining market, the Lucerne continues to outsell most of its competition while maintaining very low fleet percentages.

There will be "some" overlap in pricing... but GM will avoid their old strategy: Chevrolet Midsize sedan. Starting price: $17k Pontiac midsize sedan. Starting price: $18k Saturn midsize sedan. Starting price $17.5k Oldsmobile value midsize sedan. Starting price: $18.5k Oldsmobile premium midsize sedan. starting price $20.5k Buick value midsize sedan. Starting price $19k Buick premium midsize sedan. Starting price $21k I expect the LaCrosse replacement to start in the high $20s... maybe around $28k or so... then go up to $40k-$42k once you add AWD and technology packages... that's not hard to imagine since the current LaCrosse & Lucerne (along with most sedans, premium or not) stretch between $10k-15k depending on trim, features, and options. Adding a $2k nav to the current LaCrosse Super would push its price over $34k... The Lacrosse replacement will have much more than just a navi system compared to the current car. A $28,000 base price would position the LaCrosse replacement above the current top trim levels of the Malibu (4-cyl LTZ $26,020; 6-cyl LTZ $27,976), Aura (XR $25,675), and G6 (GXP $27,845.) The Epsilon II Malibu and Aura will be priced higher when they debut. If the LaCrosse is less expensive than my expectations who am I to complain????!!! But, this is just my expectation. It may be priced a little lower to allow some overlap with the base model LaCrosse replacement and the mainstream triplets from Chev, Sat, & Pontiac. We'll have to see... but this Buick isn't just a next gen LaCrosse. Its mission and marketing position is changing. GM is only looking to sell around 75,000 annually anyway. The LaCrosse replacement is not meant to be a mainstream/volume sedan. I expect that is what the Delta II premium compact Buick will become.

Buick is selling decently considering the market condition and the vehicle classes that Buick models compete in... and they're selling without being fleeted out like other mainstream brands are doing.

GM will not continue building overlapping midsize sedans. The next-gen Malibu will go over $30k by itself. The Saturn Aura will be next in line. The Buick Epsilon II and SAAB 9-5 will be the premium Epsilon II sedans. I'm sure the 9-5 will go up to $50k or more loaded. The AWD Buick Epsilon II going up to the low $40s is completely reasonable considering its place in GM's line-up and the current MSRPs for the Enclave & Lucerne.

Probably around $42k (loaded)... Which keeps it in the same price range as the Lucerne... $42k is also very close to how much Acura offers almost the same package in the new midsize TL. The ES350 is more expensive (can go up to $50k loaded) and doesn't offer AWD, but Lexus can command a premium. A loaded Maxima is $38k but looks less expensive than the Lexus ES350 and new Acura TL. I expect the LaCrosse replacement to look more upscale than the sport-oriented Maxima...

I do agree with you Dave... if I don't like the LaCrosse replacement when it comes out, I'm not going to buy it. So far, I like what I see. It's really down to price & features. Will it have these features available: HID headlights, memory seats (driver only, or driver and passenger), heated & cooled seats, AWD, power rear sun screen, tri-zone climate control, etc... etc... HUD would be great too, but I'm not holding my breath for that one. If it does... then it'll be interesting how much a loaded one will go for.

I like HUD too... I never look at my gauges in the Park Avenue because of it. HUD is one of the reasons I like the STS also. Interesting that the Camaro is getting it. I wish the Lucerne had it, but I believe the windshield laminate prevents Lucerne from getting HUD.

Paolino, the LaCrosse replacement goes on sale in 6 months... can you wait that long? Well, at least until pricing is announced? Then we'll know for sure how GM will be positioning/marketing this vehicle.

Here's what I could find out - Cadillac SRX V6 RWD weighs 4,164 lbs. Cadillac SRX V6 AWD weighs 4,320 lbs. Cadillac SRX V8 RWD weighs 4,302 lbs. Cadillac SRX V8 AWD weighs 4,442 lbs. But yes... the BMW X6 is a pig... in both V6 & V8 forms

I think you could make an excellent presentation out of the data from the link. I look forward to reading it :AH-HA_wink: