VenSeattle

To be honest, I like the exterior. However, what scares me the most is an interior that looks similar to the VUE or Equinox.

Theta II vehicles and TE vehicles are separate... if anything, the 9-4x & SRX may have some similarities, but don't expect any similarities between them and the Theta models.

Weren't all those vehicles and the current Lacrosse total duds in the retail market as well?! Vehicles that looked and felt 5 years older than the competition.

The Rendezvous outsold GM's Sales expectations to the point GM could drop the Pontiac version (AZTEK) and continue production without a platform mate. The Rendezvous was a hit for Buick.

The Rainier outsold the Oldsmobile Bravada while sharing a showroom floor with the GMC Envoy (another surprise to GM).

The LaCrosse was never meant to match Century/Regal sales because fleet sales were reduced when the LaCrosse came out.

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Most models slow up right before being replaced because buyers are holding off for the replacement or remodel.

Happy B-Day 98!

Since it's car based and probably will get mileage similar to the Camry, they probably decided it will likely do better than truck based SUVs or regular CUVs...it really is just a Camry tall wagon.

That's my point... the Highlander is based on the Camry platform too! They'll have two mid-size CUVs off the same platform on the same showroom floor.

We just learned Toyota will be adding a 4-cyl back to the Highlander to boost sales... Toyota doesn't realize that the only thing this will accomplish is that it'll steal sales from the RAV4.... while the Venza (if modestly successful) will steal sales from both the 4 & 6-cyl Highlanders and RAV4s.

There are sooo many things wrong with this...

Give us a production version of the Buick Riviera concept with E-flex system. GM needs to exand this technology into premium markets. A luxury E-Flex coupe would make an excellent image builder for Buick and a premium alternative/step-up to the Chevrolet VOLT.

I'm not going to give up on this idea... It just seems perfectly natural.

Funny you posted this...

I, all of a sudden, have seen dozens of 1st-gen Infiniti I30s all over the place. I pass two or three of them a day now, and they are different colors from the day before so it's not the same group of two or three over and over.

Rather odd. They're all in excellent condition. It's like they were corralled somewhere for years and then sold in mass to local dealers through auction.

YIKES!!!! Chrysler LLC's 2008 Fleet percentages....

Chrysler 300 43.4%

Chrysler Sebring 62.2% (sedan)

Chrysler Sebring 69.9% (convertible)

Chrysler PT Cruiser 63.8%

Chrysler Town & Country 30.4%

Chrysler Pacifica 42.1%

Chrysler Aspen 29.9%

Dodge Journey 28.4%

Dodge Caravan 51.6%

Dodge Caliber 56.6%

Dodge Avenger 65.5%

Dodge Charger 52.0%

Dodge Magnum 75.4%

Dodge Nitro 23.4%

Dodge Durango 56.6%

Jeep Compass 19.4%

Jeep Patriot 16.9%

Jeep Liberty 21.8%

Jeep Commander 23.6%

Jeep Grand Cherokee 22.0%

My personal favorites though:

Avalon 25.6% :rotflmao:

Highlander 21.0% :rotflmao:

Lucerne 13.2%

Enclave 6.3%

I posted this in Chrysler's sales topic... thought it'd be appropriate here...

Of all the rebadging blunders that the General has cruelly unleashed on the market over the years, the last gen Century/Regal had to be the most ridiculous. It's bad enough when you rebadge something for another brand, but it's much worse when you do it within the same division.

Moltar is very correct.

Amazingly, the last gen Century and Regal were well executed and successful in their intention. Neither of the vehicles appealed to the same market. They were rarely cross-shopped. Although very similar, "deal-beakers" abounded between them...

The Century was conservatively styled with an upright chrome grille, came with a column shifter w/bench seat standard, and only an efficient (but not very powerful) V6.

The Regal came in two-tones, body colored sport grille, trim packages, floor shifter/bucket seats standard, and engine output options (regular & supercharged).

Having both in the line-up allowed Buick to "fleet" the Century while keeping the nearly identical Regal exclusive for retail sales. Regal was never pictured as a fleet queen as the Century was because of this. It's one of the reasons why "Regal" isn't considered a damaged name plate for Buick.

A similar approach was used by Buick for the LeSabre & Park Avenue actually. The LeSabre remained bench-seat only and naturally aspirated... somewhat of a natural step-up from the Century. The Regal buyers gravitated to the Park Avenue/ PA Ultra and Rivieras.

When I was a teen... based on styling alone, I honestly thought the compact Skylark buyers were meant to move up to the B-Body Roadmaster.

So, in a way, Buick catered to three types of buyers in the 90's by offering three different lineups -

Traditional conservative Buick buyers:

Century & LeSabre

Younger, status conscious Buick Buyers:

Regal, Riviera, & Park Avenue

Extraverted value/premium shoppers:

Skylark & Roadmaster

couple of edits/comments...

The Accord has a normal (Mercedes-benz)-inspired side crease, and looks fine(also an opinion). This side crease, even on the nice looking concept, looks poor IMHO. It hurts the overall design more than it helps and really feels like an afterthought.

I have a feeling the Invicta and the production vehicle both use the same complex stamping process as the Enclave to accomplish the side crease... it's anything but an afterthought. As you like to recommend with Honda and Acurs vehicles, wait until you see it in person. I haven't read any complaints from people who have seen the concept in person...

There is some truth to Micah Pie's post regardless of which forum we're talking about...

"Estate" is a fancy way of saying "farm wagon", which this is most certainly not.

"Shooting Break" is a wagon for carrying guns and game. Not sure I'd want to put a brace of pheasants or a deer carcass in the back either, nor will most buyers. Bith are strictly British, not European terms, although Break is common in France. The standard European term is some variation on Combi—a vehicle for hauling both people and cargo—a Carryall that can do the duty of a Station Wagon. Of course the Germans go in for all kinds of weird terms that have no direct reference to the vehicle's function at all—Opel's Caravan, Ford's Turnier (Tournament), VW's Variant, Audi's Avant, BMW's Touring—many with a similar theme to Pontiac's Safari, implying the cargo room makes them perfect for touring, traveling or going on safari.

You know what, I really appreciated this explanation... Thank you griffon!

The front looks too big for the rest of the car. It looks horrible, and has nasty overhang too.

I bet I could do a better job. Oh wait...

Eh... I don't think the overhangs are bad... just the front and rear lights are shallow...

And your idea for a BRX looks too much like the CTS wagon... There's a market for both the CTS & SRX.

In 2008 (no half year or production ramp up) they sold 25,651 Enclaves in 8 months, that works out to 38,474 if they hold that pace through the fall. The Lucerne is on pace to sell 47,571 units in 2008, and they sell that car to rental agencies too, though not at Impala or G6 levels. The Lucerne doesn't sell at an average of $34-37k and it can't crack 50k sales, how will the Invicta/LaX, with the Lucerne priced the same on the same showroom floor.

I'd add to Toyota.vs.GM's response to smk...

The Lucerne has sold only 13.2% to Fleets for 2008 compared to its competition: Toyota Avalon (25.6%), Hyundai Azera (25.3%), Nissan Maxima (23.8%), Volkswagen Passat (15.1%), and Chrysler 300 (43.4%). Lucerne is also OUTSELLING ALL OF THEM... The Lucerne is kicking ass comparatively in this market. People are buying them. People are enjoying them. I was at the gas station today with a Lucerne owner in front of me (CXL V8). She bought her Buick at the same dealership as my PA (Bellevue Buick, which is now closed.) She looked to be in her mid-40's. She loves her car. The only problem she has is the same one I have... whether to get the Buick serviced in Kirkland or in Renton...

Oh... and the Lucerne is in it's 3rd year...

In 2006, Lucerne sold 96,515 units

In 2007, Lucerne sold 82,923 units

Yes, sales this year are lower, but the Lucerne's market has been hit hard just like trucks and SUVs... still, compared to its competition the Lucerne is doing great. And, as TvsG pointed out on the Enclave... Lucerne's best selling months are in the fall as well...

The Lacrosse has sold 23,231 units in 8 months this year, so it is a total dud. The BMW 5-series is outselling the Enclave this year, and the 5-series has been around a while and costs a lot more. The 5-series does well for it's class, but I wouldn't call it one of the hottest selling vehicles in the industry.

Dude! The LaCrosse is about to be replaced in 6 months!!!! Who the hell cares now?!?

And you're comparing 5-Series sales to the Enclave's???? I guess in your quest for comparisons you realized (although still in denial) the Buick Enclave is killing the (redesigned for 2007) BMW X5 in sales... :rotflmao:

The Enclave's average buyer is 56, which isn't that young, although better than the 67 year old average for a buick sedan buyer.

As TvsG stated... your information is inaccurate. Buick's average buyer's age for 2007 was 55... that only includes a partial year of Enclave sales. The Lucerne and LaCrosse are bringing in a younger audience too. The SUPER models are helping.

The Lucerne has really had no direct competition, and sales while still strong, have been consistently declining. Indirectly it competes at the bottom end with smaller premium sedans such as the ES350, Maxima, Avalon, while the V8 models are now competing against the MKS. At the very least in needs a powertrain upgrade, and preferably a major facelift as well, to be competitive against the new Lincoln. I would dump the 3.9 L in favor of the LNF and 6-speed (the 220 PS version if not the full 260 hp engine), and jack up the price at the same time (min $33-35K), and dump the Northstar for the 3.6 DI + 6-speed combo. At the very earliest possible I would also add the future 2.8 DI Turbo if it can offer similar or better power and economy than the future DI Turbo Ford V6. I would be willing to sacrifice sales for higher margins, higher take-up of more expensive options, and more prestige (2-3K a month in the US). And I would make no mention of the ES350 and Avalon in any competitor list, but only the MKS and the Phaeton if it returns without being downsized too much.

I understand what you're saying and agree. Most people compare the Lucerne to the Toyota Avalon, Mercury Sable, or Chrysler 300. These seem the most appropriate due to pricing, size (Avalon & Sable are technically large sedans by interior volume), HP, and features. The Lexus ES350 is probably the highest reaching ideal for a competitor to the Lucerne but only in SUPER trim. In truth, the ES350 is much smaller than the Lucerne and seems more appropriate as the Buick EPS II competitor than the Lucerne. I do like the comparison to the new Lincoln MKS though... I haven't had the time to check one out yet.

Is the Venza ugly enough to sell?

I'm actually surprised it's still coming... I think Toyota should have just canceled this vehicle in light of things.

The Princeton plant will instead switch to production of the Highlander sport utility vehicle. The plant will also resume making the Sequoia SUV in November.

How many more newly remodeled Highlanders can they build? It's already fleeted at 21% just to maintain current volume!!!! :rotflmao:

I can't wait to see what happens once the Venza comes out... Talk about showroom cannibalism... :rotflmao:

One of the main reasons GM purchased and operates Daewoo is for small car development. An alliance on top of that acquisition would be ridiculous. Spy shots of the new Chevy CRUZE along with the future sub/micro compacts coming out of Daewoo show a lot of global promise.

Like the Enclave was a "hot seller" and such a hit when they are selling 38,000 a year, while Lexus had years of 100k sales of the more expensive RX. The Lucerne and LaCrosse combined have sold 55,000 in the first 8 months this year, that puts them on pace to sell about 83,000 total. If they move the LaCrosse up market, and don't fleet it, they lose a few sales, and the entry-lux market is already saturated. This is a 50k a year sales volume car, with the Lucerne sales dropping to about 25-30k units a year when it comes out.

The Enclave has attracted new buyers to Buick.

It has lowered Buick's buyer average age.

It is not fleeted to maintain sales volumes.

It is successfully competing against premium import CUVs in an extremely competitive market.

It is about to be exported to other markets.

It has a higher average acquisition price than the LaCrosse and Lucerne.

The Enclave has single handedly proven Buick can successfully compete in premium markets with the right product. It should continue to be successful with the HP increase for 2009 along with a small bump in mpg.

As for a near-luxury sedan... Buick has been offering cars in the $30k-$40k range for the past decade. A Buick sedan competing in this price range is not out of character for the Buick brand and is completely appropriate. If the sedan delivers what the class expects (based on market reactions to Enclave as well as previously launched Buick models) there's no reason to believe the sedan will not be well received.

You seem to forget, even in today's declining market, the Lucerne continues to outsell most of its competition while maintaining very low fleet percentages.

That seems overly ambitious to me. The Aura isn't selling so well... and they've gone to giving it a much weaker 4-cylinder engine, which seems like a step backwards from the direction they want to head. The sedans are going to have to overlap to a degree--at least in price.

There will be "some" overlap in pricing... but GM will avoid their old strategy:

Chevrolet Midsize sedan. Starting price: $17k

Pontiac midsize sedan. Starting price: $18k

Saturn midsize sedan. Starting price $17.5k

Oldsmobile value midsize sedan. Starting price: $18.5k

Oldsmobile premium midsize sedan. starting price $20.5k

Buick value midsize sedan. Starting price $19k

Buick premium midsize sedan. Starting price $21k

I expect the LaCrosse replacement to start in the high $20s... maybe around $28k or so... then go up to $40k-$42k once you add AWD and technology packages... that's not hard to imagine since the current LaCrosse & Lucerne (along with most sedans, premium or not) stretch between $10k-15k depending on trim, features, and options. Adding a $2k nav to the current LaCrosse Super would push its price over $34k... The Lacrosse replacement will have much more than just a navi system compared to the current car.

A $28,000 base price would position the LaCrosse replacement above the current top trim levels of the Malibu (4-cyl LTZ $26,020; 6-cyl LTZ $27,976), Aura (XR $25,675), and G6 (GXP $27,845.) The Epsilon II Malibu and Aura will be priced higher when they debut.

If the LaCrosse is less expensive than my expectations who am I to complain????!!! But, this is just my expectation. It may be priced a little lower to allow some overlap with the base model LaCrosse replacement and the mainstream triplets from Chev, Sat, & Pontiac.

We'll have to see... but this Buick isn't just a next gen LaCrosse. Its mission and marketing position is changing. GM is only looking to sell around 75,000 annually anyway. The LaCrosse replacement is not meant to be a mainstream/volume sedan. I expect that is what the Delta II premium compact Buick will become.

This car will never touch $42k, my guess is $25,795 to about $34,000 loaded. And it will be a sales dud like the Aura, Astra and G8, unless the Lucerne dies off and they pick up some of that market plus sell to Avis and Enterprise for "premium" class rental car.

Buick is selling decently considering the market condition and the vehicle classes that Buick models compete in... and they're selling without being fleeted out like other mainstream brands are doing.

Seems high for a GM FWD midsize.

GM will not continue building overlapping midsize sedans. The next-gen Malibu will go over $30k by itself. The Saturn Aura will be next in line. The Buick Epsilon II and SAAB 9-5 will be the premium Epsilon II sedans. I'm sure the 9-5 will go up to $50k or more loaded. The AWD Buick Epsilon II going up to the low $40s is completely reasonable considering its place in GM's line-up and the current MSRPs for the Enclave & Lucerne.

Exactly how much would you expect something like that to go for?

Probably around $42k (loaded)... Which keeps it in the same price range as the Lucerne...

$42k is also very close to how much Acura offers almost the same package in the new midsize TL. The ES350 is more expensive (can go up to $50k loaded) and doesn't offer AWD, but Lexus can command a premium. A loaded Maxima is $38k but looks less expensive than the Lexus ES350 and new Acura TL. I expect the LaCrosse replacement to look more upscale than the sport-oriented Maxima...

I do agree with you Dave... if I don't like the LaCrosse replacement when it comes out, I'm not going to buy it. So far, I like what I see. It's really down to price & features.

Will it have these features available: HID headlights, memory seats (driver only, or driver and passenger), heated & cooled seats, AWD, power rear sun screen, tri-zone climate control, etc... etc... HUD would be great too, but I'm not holding my breath for that one.

If it does... then it'll be interesting how much a loaded one will go for.

I would prefer HUD.

I like HUD too... I never look at my gauges in the Park Avenue because of it. HUD is one of the reasons I like the STS also.

Interesting that the Camaro is getting it. I wish the Lucerne had it, but I believe the windshield laminate prevents Lucerne from getting HUD.