VenSeattle

I think this is talking about Alpha. It makes sense. Alpha needs to offer both 4-cyl & V6s though.

NS... my guess is as good as yours... GM isn't clear on Saturn or Buick's direction at the moment. They've made recent decisions that directly contradict "official" plans for both brands. As far as we know, Saturn could be phased out with Insignia and all future Opels & Daewoos ending up as Chevrolets. Who knows at the moment? Saturn is struggling to sell vehicles in the high $20k to $30k+. Their volume isn't that great for a brand competing with mainstream brands.

Last that was mentioned, It was under consideration to merge Buick-Cadillac-SAAB into one dealer franchise and Chevrolet left free-standing...

Are we looking at the phase out of Pontiac, GMC, & Saturn now?

If China's market becomes unstable, Buick would be sold to a Chinese company in a heartbeat and phased out in the US... no question.

Nothing appears to be for certain at the moment...

I understand and appreciate that Delta II is supposed to be one heck of a great platform, but I still think Buick's compact sedan should be developed on the SWB Epsilon II platform. The Insignia is on this version of the Epsilon II platform (and possibly the next Saab 9-5), so it's not like GM is developing an exclusive version of Epsilon II just for a Buick vehicle. To me, this would make the Buick compact a little more exclusive and a cut above the other FWD compacts offered by GM (which it should be given Buick's status).

If they give the division a "Buickized" version of the Cruze, I will wash my hands of GM. If the company embraces the brand engineered mediocrity of their past, then they deserve to go under. If GM does give Buick a Delta II based sedan (which I'm not entirely against, but I still prefer the suggested scenario above), it had better have its own unique exterior/interior design and appropriate premium features to justify its place in Buick's lineup.

Buick is getting the Insignia in China as the Regal... It very possible that's the reason Saturn's Aura has been delayed for restyling. The Insignia may be coming to the US as a Epsilon II SWB Buick Regal slotted between the Delta-II Buick and the Epsilon II LWB LaCrosse replacement.

Buick's line-up is suppose to mimic China's... this seems to make the most sense considering what we know about the Aura delay/remodel.

I just don't know if Buick should be competing in that price range, however. I feel like the LaCrosse should start around $30k, the TSX is at $29k and the S40 is $24k base. I'm not sure Buick can demand more than about $27k for a fully loaded compact, so probably around $19-20k base... I just don't think they can make a car that is a legitimate competitor to the TSX and S40 for $4+k less.

Most of the compact's positioning depends on the price of the 2010 LaCrosse replacement. A $23k-$28k Buick Compact could work if the LaCrosse Replacement starts around $27k-$30k.

Remember the Cruze will start around $15k when it debuts in the US. The Astra will probably be similar, if not just a few k more (maybe $17k-$18k) There's plenty of room for a premium compact Buick firmly in the $23k-$28k range. A $7k-$8k increase in base price over the Cruze would allow Buick to offer a competitive premium compact. Selling a compact at the price of a current mid-large w-body LaCrosse would be a major improvement.

As for internal competition... Buicks and SAABs will not be cross shopped and their styling will be polar opposites.

I'd actually want Buick to offer one well equipped Buick compact (like just offering the available top-level Delta II engine, unless a hybrid form was available) with a limited price range... similar to Honda & Acura's strategy.

I'd be all for more colors in interior leather. Hell, La-Z-Boy offers furniture in colors other than neutrals. GM could really differentiate themselves from the rest of the pack by offering neutral carpets/dashes with colored seats and door trim. The 2001 Aurora offered a very rare green/neutral interior color called Mint for its first year. That was novel.

Funny you mention the green interior trim... My 1995 Chrysler Cirrus had a Silver-Fern exterior & interior color... Unique. I liked it.

My main disagreements with ponchoman were about the bodyside moldings and the chrome strip along the rocker panel. I like the sweepspear-inspired crease without bodyside moldings. The chrome rockers dress up the profile too. It looks good on VWs, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus, etc...

I know you were talking to Paolino... be me personally, no. I just don't care for the look of the Cruze. It's not ugly at all. I'm just not fond of it.

Plus, take into account: GM can charge more for Buick & SAAB branded Delta IIs... profitability is more important than ever. Chevrolet & Saturn branded vehicles compete more on price. GM needs premium compacts that won't require discounts to sell.

Plus, if anything needs standard Quiet Tuning, a compact does...

I think the Cruze could compare to a Jetta, after all it's nothing more than a Mexican Golf sedan with twist-beam and a high price tag. The S40 is IRS though and more expensive, the TSX and A4 midsize not compact, comparable more to the Epsilon 9-3.

Well... I'm thinking along the lines of the premium 4-cyl FWD market. There aren't many left but it seems to be destined to grow considering the conditions. Regardless if Buick's 4-cyl compact isn't the largest in the segment, it still needs to be able to compete in style, features, and sophistication.

Funny about the opinions of the Cruze=Buick...

I'm finding it hard to like personally. This Cruze is not a bad car. I'm sure it'll sell better than any compact GM car before it. It's bigger than the Cobalt and the interior appears to be stylish and high quality... great achievements... It's obviously engineered and designed to appeal directly to Civic & Corolla buyers...

The problem is the Cruze doesn't begin to compare to a spec'd out Jetta or S40... let alone the new TSX or A4 1.8t...

The Cruze sets the bottom line for Delta II (a very well accomplished bottom line.)

The Buick Compact should be as comfortable, luxurious, and upscale as a FWD GM compact can get (Cadillac will not have one).

SAAB’s 9-3 can be more about premium sport/performance with styling and luxury only Trollhattan can deliver.

Thank God

+1

I've always liked the style of J30...had to look it up, forgot it was RWD. It was styled by Jerry Hirschberg, who for some reason, I thought was previously with Pontiac, maybe in the '80s.

I can picture Infiniti reviving the J-series as their "4-dr coupe" to compete against similar cars like the CLS, new BMW 8-series, Audi A7 "Sportsback", and Jaguar XF... that would be very nice...

Infiniti may have done it with the new G37 sedan, coupe, and convertible.

I really do lust for a modern J30 though... The G37 sedan has some of the same interior/exterior characteristics. So, I guess that's why I like it...

Get real.....WILL YOU?

Let's talk about the retail-side of the equation. How many retail, customer-sought-after-and-purchased Camrys are sold? Yeah...that's what I thought.

How many retail LaCrosses are sold? Yeah....that's also what I thought......

I see you put alot of intelligent thought into your post above before you typed it....didn't you?

You want intelligent? We aren't talking retail... ---> Fact is you'll see almost 4 times as many Camries driving around with a rental scan bar than the LaCrosse. In actual quantity, you're just as likely to see a rental LaCrosse as you are a rental Accord... which is next to NEVER.

Most Buicks on the road MY2005 to present are driven by the owner. That's the point here. I, of all people, want to rent Buicks when I travel and can't ever seem to get one... not even through Avis. That's how much of a "rental queen" they are.

Enterprise has almost 6,000 US rental locations.

National has over 3,000 US rental locations.

HERTZ has about 1,900 US rental locations.

AVIS has about 1,700 US rental locations.

Alamo has around 1,000 US rental locations.

Tell me my chances of finding one of the 4,xxx 2008 LaCrosses available that were sent to rental agencies so far this year?

I'm thankful I moved to the PacNW... Starbucks are pretty safe in this area... Not too many bible study groups... Most people up here seem to be intellectuals that lean towards science, technology, or nature (you'll never forget about a Solstice up here!)

There should be a maximum of 3 vehicles each spun off the Lambda and Theta platforms.

There are 4 Lambda vehicles this generation: Chevrolet, Saturn, GMC, & Buick

From my understanding, there will only be three Lambdas for the 2nd gen: Chevrolet, Buick, & Cadillac.

GMC & Saturn will not get a 2-gen 8-passenger vehicle off of Lambda.

There are only three Theta II CUVs planned also: Equinox replacement, GMC version, & Saturn VUE.

There are currently only two TE CUVs planned: Saab 9-4x & Cadillac SRX

Looking at it again, it looks way too Korean for my tastes. I thought Buick was making a comeback with the Enclave, but with high gas prices Enclave sales are going to be limited... the LaCrosse is all that Buick will have that shouldn't have a relatively low ceiling on how many they can sell, and it doesn't appear to be near the product the Enclave is... the interior, while very nice, doesn't blow the competition out of the water, and the exterior doesn't look like a $40k any more than the Malibu does.

You came to this conclusion without: pricing, features, options, trim-levels, horsepower, fuel economy, dimensions, clear spy pics, production pics, etc... etc... etc...

The LaCrosse hybrid is out in China now... trust me, there will be one (99% sure to be sold in both markets) to replace it.

with the Cadillac Lambda coming, the Enclave is really somewhat useless

Northstar... OMG...

Buick Enclave runs between $35k-$45k (the price range of the new compact/midsize SRX)

Cadillac Escalade runs $59k-$81k

Oh yeah... I see the overlap if Escalade goes Lambda...

Even if Lambda becomes a model between SRX & Escalade (which I doubt), there will still be a large gap in price, styling, and not to mention clientele.

I think they would also.

The direction I'm going with my post is volume... percentages are deceiving. nearly four times as many Camries go to fleet than LaCrosse. Almost twice as many Avalons when to fleet instead of LaCrosse -

Fleet total for mid year:

Accord - 4,302 units

LaCrosse - 4,546 units

Avalon - 7,885 units

Camry - 17,013 units

The chances of getting a Camry at Avis or Enterprise are much higher than getting a LaCrosse. GM has allowed sales to drop for the LaCrosse as demand dissipates for this generation. GM isn't propping up LaCrosse sales by flooding rental agencies. The LaCrosse isn't a fleet queen. Never has been.

Well, I think, IMHO, any "premium" car that is at 21.4% fleet penetration is a fleet-queen of sorts........

.....especially when even the ubiquitous Camry is at only 8.6%.

So, the Toyota Avalon, Audi A5, Volvo S40, Volvo S60, Chrysler 300, Hyundai Azera, and Jaquar X-type are at or above 20%. They're all fleet queens? I agree yes to most, but not all of them.

Volkswagen Passat, Audi Q7, Infiniti FX are all around 15-16%... Are they under the threshhold of being a fleet queen? or are they considered to be whored out like the LaCrosse too? I don't think so.

If anything, I think "LaCrosse" is already more tarnished than either Century OR Regal.

The Century and Regal names go way back......LaCrosse was just introduced and instantly became Buick's rental-queen, and was a new name applied to an old car (W-body that is.)

IIRC, the LaCrosse was never fleeted like a "fleet queen." Even right now it's only at 21% just 6 months before being replaced.

I've requested LaCrosses and Lucernes several times when traveling and they're never available. I always get stuck in a Ford 500/Tuarus or an Impala because I'm tired of all the Hyundais and Chryslers that I've had.

Not an improvement, and they didn't even work on the crappy interior.

Agreed... I thought the exterior of the coupe/convertible looked fine... It's the interior that needed help.

The only issue I wish they would have addressed on the convertible was to extend the chrome trim all the way around the passenger compartment when the top was retracted. They didn't...

Careful my friend.

Certain admins around here will be threatening you within hours if you 'stir the pot too much' like I apparently did.

Oh... come on... on a 4-month old post, you're gonna say this? Anyway... This isn't the Buick forum... now is it?

If you weren't aware, Saturn has a relationship with GME... check out some posts by one of our members, PCS, to learn more.

Feel free to blast away with your perspective/ opinion/ agenda on GME

I agree with Moltar and siegen... I could really fall for this car.

Believe it or not, my current favorite hardtop convertible (other than the XLR) is the Volvo C70. I see a lot of them around here (especially at the ProClub) and really like it... This could replace the C70 as my favorite. I'm interested to see what Infiniti will charge for it...

There's always the alternative.... :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

McDonald's Fights Culture

i want to talk about coffee & mcdonald's for just a minute.

here's the scene: two women are sitting in a bookstore cafe sipping coffee by a fire. think liberal arts grad students. not exactly mcdonald's bread and butter clientèle.

they break away from their NY Times and Dostoevsky and have an exchange similar to the following:

blond white girl: "Hey, so i heard mcdonald's makes lattes now."

jewish girl: "Well that's...that's...fantastic," she says, social consequences be damned.

and then they say things like i don't have to listen to jazz all day long! i can read gossip magazines again! i can watch reality tv! i don't really know how to speak french! i don't even know where paraguay is! what's paraguay?

And then the pitch: Try mcdonald's McCafe coffees. all the coffee, hold the attitude.

and i wonder aloud: who is Ronald McDonald appealing to with this ad?

McCafe commercials are just annoying.... ugh.

I voted now and then... I like Starbucks... their coffee and atmosphere. They usually have a couple of different coffees brewed so ask what they're serving when you order a drip. Try something different.

It could be GM photos, but all of the new small CUV's from GM appear to be within inches of each other. The proportions do look the same between the Vue, SRX, 9-4, Terrain & Equinox--if you factor in the Captiva, you've got a rainbow of product coming from a compromised platform, IMO.

I'd like to see these in person before judging, but I'm willing to bet that all of these products are within a few inches of each other in every major dimension.

Won't matter if they are efficient, good looking and well priced---but its either weird that they all are so similar yet different underneath or its stupid to bother with this type of product. If you must make 5/6 hats for this architecture, just make 'em good.

Uhm... they're not all on the same platform/architecture...

Infiniti offers the first looka t the upcoming 2009 Infiniti G37 Convertible, which makes its world debut at the Los Angeles Auto Show in November.

The new G Convertible features a fully automatic 3-piece folding top – providing a coupe-like silhouette and all-weather protection when up and exhilarating open-air motoring when in the down position. The G37 Convertible will be powered by a 3.7-liter V6 producing 320-plus horsepower.

It goes on sale at Infiniti retailers nationwide in early 2009.

For more information on the complete lineup of Infiniti vehicles, visit:
www.infiniti.com.