VenSeattle

To kind of expand of Fly’s statement… When one is under the influence of a particular culture, religion, belief, a form of brainwashing, etc... and is COMMANDED or PERSUADED to perform a suicide mission of any sort (suicide bombing, kamikaze, etc) for the preservation of their beliefs AND their own soul... that goes into an entirely OTHER realm of existence or plain of reality. One part is defense: Defending their beliefs, life style, loved ones, country, etc One part fear: Fear of being dishonored, fear of losing their own or their family's eternal salvation by their Deity. I don't feel this unique type of suicide is responsible for this little girl's death. Nor do I believe it’s a contributing factor to those who call the Suicide Help Line. :huh:

I'm aware that this discussion has occurred several times on C&G. Unfortunately, much has been lost with the crashes... Reasons that make Oldsmobile different from Buick (and reasons that GM won't make the same mistake twice): 1) Oldsmobile was unprofitable before it received its $3 billion cash infusion. That cash infusion resulted in the excusive NorthStar 4.0 V8 & 3.5 V6. Great engines but terribly expensive to manufacture. Expensive debut of technology features like 4-Channel Stability control. Oldsmobile never recouped that investment, let alone returned to profitability. 2) Every vehicle Oldsmobile offered was engineered on a different platform. That's also extremely expensive (especially when sales volume doesn't justify it): Alero: N-Platform Intrigue: W-Platform Aurora: G-Platform Silhouette: U-Body Bravada: GMT360 Compared to Buick's line-up through the 1990's & early 2000's: W-Platform: Century & Regal G-Platform: LeSabre, Park Avenue, Riviera Even now, the Rainier benefited from the R&D costs paid for by Oldsmobile on the Bravada. The Terraza & Rendezvous share mechanics to a degree (both are U-body derived) The use of the same platform for several vehicles within Buick kept Buick profitable. The use of the same power plant in almost all Buick vehicles kept Buick profitable. 3) Buick retail sales percentage is higher than Oldsmobile's. By 2000, the majority of Oldsmobile's annual sales were from GM employees and rental companies. The market dried up on Oldsmobile. Oldsmobile, as a whole, was not meeting retail sales expectations: Intrigue and Aurora were both VERY disappointing. Buick is actually increasing retail sales and decreasing rental sales with each new model debut. Yes, the total sales number is lowering, but with a positive effect that more and more sales are retail purchases. That means higher transaction prices than a fleet sale would provide. 4) Most buyers from Oldsmobile left GM. Oldsmobile buyers did not flock to another GM division like originally planned. As much as import buyers want to believe that domestic buyers are blind... well, they aren't. They didn't appreciate being herded to the nearest Chevrolet, Buick, or Cadillac dealership when it was time to trade-in. GM LOST most of Oldsmobile's customers when the division closed. 5) Buick is successful in China. It could eventually result in both market line-ups merging into one international portfolio, but Buick is having a successful resurgence in a critical global market. 6) Buick is merging with Pontiac & GMC. That cuts down a lot of the infrastructure costs,and with proper brand alignment prevents model overlap. GM is finally maneuvering its brands to a point where internal competition (sales cannibalism) is almost a thing of the past. There are several more reasons why Oldsmobile failed. There are also several more reasons why Buick has a fighting chance. These are just the ones I can come up with at the moment.

You live in a reality that's of your own. It's not strength that pushes anyone to suicide. It's complete desperation to end one's own pain, fear, and/or suffering brought on by the inability to persevere. That is, if they're sane to begin with. Prove me wrong and knock yourself out. :P You know I'm joking... I'm not really asking you to commit suicide for the sake of an argument.

You fail to take into account that GMAC is apart of GM. GMAC has been carrying GM for awhile. But yes, GM as a global company was profitable last year. 2004 Annual Report:

Please... go into details. Why are you sure "Buick will be cut quick"?

Well, I don't know if it's a Northstar V12 or the XV12 or what ever they're going to call it. But, the future Cadillac flagship is suppose to have a V8 & V12. Last rumor was 2008 or 2009... Not sure, but it's suppose to still be coming.

Are you saying GM wasn't? Check it out. GM has been running in the Red for the past two quarters. Not the past two years. Division by division is a different issue. Overall, GM has been in the Black up until this year's Q1 & Q2.

They are making a V12 Northstar.

If I recall at the time, it was in Delphi's best interest. The market was strong. Delphi could take on contracts with competing manufacturers without it becoming a conflict of interest. I'm sure the "premium" developed over time when everyone started pressing for cuts on the supplier side and GM couldn't outsource to an overseas supplier due to UAW relations. If GM would have gone with the lowest bidder, Delphi would have filed for bankruptcy much sooner. Fixed costs have become an obvious cause for Delphi's current unprofitability. Delphi can't compete against cheaper labor overseas.

Why should they? GM was profitable then. Are the UAW members willing to give back their huge profit sharing checks that they received over the past several years? No... Why should they? GM was profitable then.

The STS is selling perfectly fine. It will easily make its sales goal this year. The STS's Northstar IS the new Northstar. It's practically an all new engine for RWD/AWD applications. 320hp under normal aspiration and 469 hp supercharged is completely competitive in this market. The 320 hp may increase in a year or two once the STS gets the 6-sp across the line-up, but a new Northstar will not be required for that.

So the message becomes: "Go ahead... file for bankruptcy. We'll take our chances." Delphi replied: "So be it."

It appears that the UAW must feel that if they are not to survive, then the companies they work for must not survive as well. When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company… the former company will be gone. The UAW symbolically will get their ultimate wish: for both to fall together and die. They fail to realize that a company is not human. It can re-organize and resurrect itself after bankruptcy. However, the relationship between the UAW & that new company does not have to be resurrected in any form. The UAW has no value if there is no company to grant them their demands. It comes down to the UAW deluding itself into believing they had more power than what they actually did. Ultimately, the corporation has the final trump card. When the UAW decides to go to the extreme of "whetever means necessary" then the company has no other choice than to do the same.

If a Toyota and Lexus sit beside one another, the fit, finish & quality will be similar. Only the materials used will be different. Such can and should be the same for GM. I don't think it's as much that Cadillac is ordinary as Chevrolet's quality and appearance has increased dramatically with its most recent remodels. Yes... the STS can improve. It will continue to get better. The DTS’s interior is superior to the STS imo, and I'm sure the next CTS will show a dramatic step forward above the current STS as well. I don't know if the STS will receive a mid-life interior upgrade but the next generation will also continue the trend. There's only about $20k difference between the FWD V8 powered Impala SS and the STS V8 RWD performance sedan. I still believe you get your $20k worth with the STS. For that matter… the difference is far less between the Impala and the DTS and you definitely get your money's worth with the DTS.

Why wasn't the Lexus GS430 included?

Here’s my ramble… for what it’s worth I believe a lot of the Union manufacturing positions at Delphi will become automated. I remember reading over the past decade or two that several positions never did become automated in Delphi because of requirement to maintain a certain amount of Union positions. It's interesting to read that GM is paying an estimated $2 Billion annual premium for doing business with Delphi. No doubt it is out of necessity to sooth GM UAW members by using UAW part suppliers. I agree with evok that this is history in the making and also a necessity. The Industrial Golden Age has long past and one of the last “Old Era” empires is finally collapsing upon itself. This is what happens when an industry that’s been consolidating for half a century can no longer do so. Several automobile manufacturers & part suppliers have gone out of business in the past 50 years. They just didn’t make that big of an impact because someone was there to pick up the pieces/buy the assets and keep running business as usual. Delphi was once an internal division of GM… this is a small scale example of what an empire like GM will look like if it too falls into Bankruptcy.

Thanks zoom! :) It took me awhile. I'm just a beginner.

I usually avoid the lounge for that very reason... But sometimes it's fun. I tried logging onto AIM to say hi, but it's currently unavailable. I'll try to catch you online sometime soon. :)

Up late drinking? http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons//AH-HA_wink.gif

Uhm... DOHC and supercharger enthusiasts that can afford to pay the price of admission to avoid the Chevrolet Dealership experience for an oil change. I seriously think most of them would prefer to have their Cadillac Escalade Platinum & XLR-V serviced by the same dealer. To me, the XLR is superior to the Corvette in almost every way. That includes the hardtop convertible feature. If I could afford my choice, I'd go for the XLR without a second thought. Cadillac deserved a version of the Corvette decades ago. It's a shame that it's taken GM this long to cut through the bureaucracy to do it.

Yep. Nothing positive to say about a 469hp Cadillac sports sedan. It has the same hp as the E55 & only 31 hp less than the V10 BMW. Still thousands cheaper than both. I think the mags are going to surprise you. The STS-V goes beyond simply catering to "Cadillac" fans and brand loyalists. Comparing the STS-V to the CLS55 is a stretch and inappropriate. It's far more expensive and is not the STS's direct competition. But still, the STS-V has the same HP as the CLS55.

For those who are interested in looking at the cold hard numbers... 2006 Honda Civic Sedan: DX/LX trim: Headroom (in., front/rear) 39.4 / 37.4 Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.2 / 34.6 Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.7 / 52.4 Hiproom (in., front/rear) 51.9 / 51.0 Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 12.0 Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 90.9 EX Trim: Headroom (in., front/rear) 38.1 / 36.7 Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.2 / 34.6 Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.6 / 52.3 Hiproom (in., front/rear) 51.9 / 51.0 Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 12.0 Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 88.4 2006 Honda Civic Coupe: DX/LX trim Headroom (in., front/rear) 38.0 / 35.1 Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.6 / 30.3 Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.9 / 52.1 Hiproom (in., front/rear) 53.0 / 49.2 Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 11.5 Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 83.7 EX Trim: Headroom (in., front/rear) 37.8 / 34.7 Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.6 / 30.3 Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.9 / 52.1 Hiproom (in., front/rear) 53.0 / 49.2 Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 11.5 Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 83.0

I'm pleased on all accounts. The more I see it, the more I like it. The Yukon looks different enough exterior wise where you won't be confusing them like before. There are very few things I'd change on the Tahoe's interior so I'm not disappointed by the carried over interior. The extra touches of metal & wood trim help dress it up even more. BPG dealerships have a hit IMO.

I forgot about the Roadster bobo. That was probably a hint to the direction of the Alero replacement. I never liked the RECON. I could only hope that Oldsmobile would have come to their senses if they stayed around. I think the RECON was suppose to have been Theta based if/when produced... correct?

Remember, the announcement about Oldsmobile's end came in Novemeber/ December 2000. * The 2001 (2nd Gen) Aurora had just debuted months before the division's demise was announced. * The remodeled Bravada hadn't been released yet. * The Alero had just debuted as a 1999 replacement for the Achieva. * Intrigue went on sale for the 1998 model year. From what I know, there aren't any concepts for a 3rd gen Aurora. What I heard/read was that Oldsmobile petitioned GM to let them use Cadillac's SIGMA platform for the 3rd Generation Aurora and GM said no. No other platforms had been targeted before the announcement came. I doubt much progress was made for an Alero replacement on Epsilon. I never heard of a 2nd gen Intrigue in the works on the W-platform either. The 2000 Oldsmobile Profile concept and OSV performance division are probably the two biggest indicators of where Oldsmobile was heading if the division hadn't been closed.