VenSeattle

I forgot about the Roadster bobo. That was probably a hint to the direction of the Alero replacement. I never liked the RECON. I could only hope that Oldsmobile would have come to their senses if they stayed around. I think the RECON was suppose to have been Theta based if/when produced... correct?

Remember, the announcement about Oldsmobile's end came in Novemeber/ December 2000. * The 2001 (2nd Gen) Aurora had just debuted months before the division's demise was announced. * The remodeled Bravada hadn't been released yet. * The Alero had just debuted as a 1999 replacement for the Achieva. * Intrigue went on sale for the 1998 model year. From what I know, there aren't any concepts for a 3rd gen Aurora. What I heard/read was that Oldsmobile petitioned GM to let them use Cadillac's SIGMA platform for the 3rd Generation Aurora and GM said no. No other platforms had been targeted before the announcement came. I doubt much progress was made for an Alero replacement on Epsilon. I never heard of a 2nd gen Intrigue in the works on the W-platform either. The 2000 Oldsmobile Profile concept and OSV performance division are probably the two biggest indicators of where Oldsmobile was heading if the division hadn't been closed.

The 3800 won't be phased out until GM can guarantee that it can replace the 3800 with something that won't impact its CAFE. The only reasonable answer is either the OHV HV family or the DOHC HF family (or maybe both) will be getting technology that will allow for an increase in each engine’s average MPG. I don't know what it will be, but MPG will need to improve before the 3800 is put to rest. GM still hasn't debuted DOD or 3 Valves per cylinder on the OHV HV family correct?

Thanks for the background info on Isuzu griffon. A lot of people on C&G don't seem to realize what Isuzu & Suzuki (both GM partners) are like outside of the US. They only know them by their limited US reputations.

Honestly... it's not as if GM couldn't sell its investment to anyone... Toyota could really be viewed as helping out Fuji more than GM. It's never gentle on your stock price or market perception when an investor walks away. Yes, GM has its issues at the moment, but if the stock wasn’t sold to a reputable investor like Toyota, then some could speculate something could also be wrong at Fuji.

My problem with Subaru's current direction is that they're moving too far up-market... well, attempting to. They haven't succeeded yet. That's why I think SAAB would be a good brand for them. Let Subaru serve as a mainstream division while they use their premium ideas to rebuild SAAB as a luxury brand above Subaru. Even selling them on the same showroom floor wouldn't be a problem for many areas.

As of September's sales report, GM has sold 26,548 STSs. That's better than the new Acura RL, new Lexus GS, and new Infiniti M-Series. Obviously the public approves of the STS. The V-Series will only increase the STS's status, personal appeal, and sales. As for the lower than expected XLR sales (3,101), I still believe the 7k annual sales goal is actually a target once the V-Series becomes available. GM hasn't shown very much concern over current sales in comparison to expectations. The V-Series will spur interest in the XLR and encourage potential buyers to test drive both versions. I'm sure many will want the V-Series, but several will also find the regular XLR's performance satisfying, and the price more reasonable. The XLR is a halo vehicle and is serving its purpose VERY well. Wealthy people don't mind being seen in a $75k Cadillac roadster. I think they'll be very accepting of a $100k performance version. The XLR is a worthy vehicle. It is quality. Roadster season is winding down for the winter, so I suspect the XLR-V to help really boost sales come Spring.

Eh... I'm not concerned about Buick/Pontiac/GMC disappearing anytime soon... GM can not afford to pay off all those dealerships for closing their doors. I think BPG will be able to sustain 1,000,000 annual sales with what they're getting in the near future. I'm sure that's enough to keep them profitable between the three of them. Even if it's not, that's too much market share to just walk away from in the next 5 years. I seriously think GM would declare Bankruptcy and re-org before they lose another 1,000,000 annual sales. I can see GM selling Saab to Subaru. I think that would be best for GM, SAAB & even for Subaru.

Well, I live in Acura country. Acura is very popular in the Seattle area. I have an Acura dealership within 2 miles of my house. I see tons of TLs & TSXs on the road but hardly EVER see the new RL. I can only assume that this should be one of the larger RL markets since Acura is so popular up here. I see way more STSs, BMW 5-series, & Lexus GSs on the road than the RL.

And it does not look like an Accord. :D

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Well... Fly might have meant Mazda also... The RL looks like a mid-sized Mazda if you're not completely analyzing the parking lot.

Yeah... as Northstar stated, we've seen the upgraded interior for the STS-v. The quality problems have been addressed. The STS-v interior is awesome.

A.K.A. Successful trend setters; for which a large portion of the public strives to be or be like.

Hopefully :D

Of course, my perception is related to brand image as a whole for GM and it's divisions.

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Exactly... It shows that GM has hit the bull's-eye with Cadillac's new direction. This is the market segment Cadillac belongs in. It's great to see Cadillac have a presence, instead of just a coincidental appearance.

Now that GM has previewed some of the new SUVs to the market, there will be people holding out for the new models. This even goes for the trucks. The new trucks will not look identical to the SUVs but they will be receiving the same refinements.

The prices look appropriate. Even now, Cadillac vehicles are still priced thousands below their direct competitors.

Just noticed: Yukon gets more interior wood.  Center console, Tahoe just has a plastic bin.

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I just noticed that the Denali Steering Wheel has wood around the rim as well.

BPG dealerships should be jumping up and down for joy across the country... Picture walking into a BPG dealership with a GMC Yukon Denali, Buick Lucerne CXS, & Pontiac Solstice all sharing the showroom floor. Fantastic.

The RL has a 300 HP V-6.  And, I don't think the average RL buyer cares about beating anyone stoplight to stoplight.  The car is a tourer.  Something that Cadillac used to know about.  Remember, not everyone wants or needs performance.  Some just want a nice ride.

This RL is more competent than the last and sells a heckuva' lot better than the previous model too.

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Uhm... you forgot to account for the SAE changes...
For 2006, the RL is:
290 horsepower @ 6200 rpm
256 lbs-ft. of torque @ 5000 rpm
For 2006, TL is now 258hp... down from 270hp.

The reason for calling the RL a flop is:
* The new RL is being outsold by almost every one of its competitors
* It’s not meeting Honda's own first full year sales expectations
* It’s not winning reviews

The competition is fierce. All Tier 1 luxury brands have more powerful RWD V8 sedans with AWD available.

I think he means why does it have it's own thread for sales, because Cadillac wouldn't have it's own thread for sales seperate from GM's sales.

Anyways, it's seperate because the press releases were probably seperate, so Josh posted them that way.

This quote made me laugh: "The RL luxury sedan also set a new September record with sales of 1,552, shattering the previous record of 1,385 units set in 1997. Year-to-date RL sales reached 13,446 units, up 282 percent compared to last year.

So an increase of less than 200 units shatters a record? And it's pretty funny it's up close to 300 percent and it's only at 13k units after 9 months.  :lol:

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The RL is a flop but the media won't admit it. A 290hp V6 just doesn't cut it for the $50k market. SH-AWD hasn't helped too much in the comparisons either. Other AWD $50k vehicles have been rated higher.

I can't tell if the steering-wheel is 4 or 3 spoke (pic too small) My guess... Audi A2?

Ven, the Ion did not change in a substantive way.  SUBSTANTIVE way.  i.e. brand new dash, brand new door panels.  The new seats are cobalt seats.  That was a good move.  After year one they changed the grain on the dashboard top plastic.  It had no net effect because it still was cheap looking overall.  the IP was still in the center.  The center IP and cheap interior were the main criticisms about the Ion.  None of the running changes made a dent in rectifying those faults enough so folks would say, "I've changed my mind, now I like the Ion and will buy it."

Even for 2006, they reshaped the center stack so it wouldn't cut into your leg.  Nice of them to do that.  A useful thing.  But that alone doesn't go far enough to CHANGE PEOPLE's OPINIONS from 'yuck i don't like it' to 'yes, now i will buy it'.

So, you're wrong, it is indeed the PERFECT example of why they need to bite the bullet and fix their fuckups.

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Exterior:

2003 ION:



2005 ION:



Interior:

2003 ION:



2005 ION:



The dramatic exterior changes, upgraded interior materials, new seats, & new steering wheel all combine to a substantive effort by GM to help increase the ION's appeal. It's been decades since GM responded this quickly to help correct flaws in an all new vehicle. The instrumentation can not be moved without a COMPLETE interior redesign. That's far beyond anything substantive for a 2-year-old vehicle. Besides, as I said in the previous post, it's really a preference than a flaw of the ION. For those who do not want the ION's center instrumentation, they can shop the Cobalt. GM has already made it clear that the center instrumentation will not last more than one generation. That should make you happy enough that it didn't even take a full model life cycle for GM to figure that out.

Give credit where credit is due... GM in the 1990's would have never exhibited this much effort to correct a flawed vehicle.

GM's drop in sales is not just about "pull-ahead"... The Dealership lots were empty for a good part of September. Once the lots are full again, things will look much different...

As for the Oldsmobile/Buick comparison:

There are MAJOR differences to the NEW Buick & the then NEW Oldsmobile:

1) Oldsmobile dramatically abandoned its loyal buyers with the Intrigue & Aurora. The LaCrosse & Lucerne do NO SUCH thing.

2) Both the Intrigue & Aurora brought higher MSRP prices to Oldsmobile ON TOP OF One price shopping:

1997 Base MSRP:
1997 Eighty-Eight - $22,595
1997 Cutlass Supreme - $18,950

1998 Base MSRP:
1998 Aurora - $36,160
1998 Intrigue - $20,890

Even though the 2001 Aurora lowered the MSRP of Aurora closer to the Eighty-Eight's (2001 Aurora MSRP: $30,619) It was still too little too late.

GM simply tried to move Oldsmobile upscale too fast. That's not the case with Buick. The LaCrosse is the same price as the Century & Regal, while the Lucerne is the same price as a LeSabre & base Park Avenue. Bench seats are still offered in both for the traditionalists and many styling cues (inside & out) have been updated without appearing foreign to the typical Buick buyer (unlike Oldsmobile's.)

3) During the 1990's Oldsmobile was a stand alone division competing internally with Buick for the same premium buyer with similarly equipped models.
Buick is now a division partially supported by Pontiac-GMC and does not have another GM division to compete with for premium buyers.

There are some other differences, but those are the main ones that come to mind.

*********** Something else to mention, the LaCrosse is selling better than the Intrigue ever did. I'm willing to bet the Lucerne will be selling 4x the Aurora's best year by the end of 2006.

Chevy as passed the revolution test very well.  They are a healthy brand.  To me the weakest spot has been the Malibu...just too odd for my tastes.

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I agree... consider that the new Cobalt, Impala, & even 2007 Tahoe all have a similar look & feel to them. It makes you wonder if the Malibu was entirely developed separate from the rest of Chevrolet's future projects (especially the interior.)

Hopefully the 2007/8 Malibu replacement will complete the revolution.

Here's another pic of the LaCrosse gauges... When illuminated, they're more attractive IMO...

THIS is EXACTLY what the LaCrosse should have looked like!  Agree with you on everything.

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Remember the X-Type is even more expensive than the Lucerne... It would be better to compare those interiors. I think the Lucerne beats the X-Type in almost every regard.

For the price of the LaCrosse, you get a lot more than people give it credit for.