VenSeattle

Thank you for agreeing with me that Horse Power isn't everything. For $42,000, the HP on the base 5-series was even worse than the up coming $27,000 Lucerne. Other factors made the 5-Series worth its price. That was my point. I personally believe that the Lucerne also has qualities that make it a luxury car. It's definitely worth the price. Several HUNDRED THOUSAND people have recently purchased the 3800 in cars between $30k-$40k and are VERY happy with it. I don't think it will turn away any LeSabre owners or non-traditional potentials who actually get into the vehicle and test drive it. i recommend test driving the Lucerne before saying the Lucerne won't deliver a refined experience in the V6 models. Everything seems to indicate that the 3800 isn't noticeable. Check out the thread that the CX Lucerne is quieter than the current Lexus ES330. I Edited this because I came across a little too bitter. OC is usually a reasonable person. :P

You fail to acknowledge that the Lucerne also has more sound deadening technology than most Japanese cars. The media & the people on this board have taken the opportunity to criticize the 3800 even under normal driving conditions. I'm glad the test was on a CX. That guarantees it was performed with the 3800. I thought that would keep naysayers from take punches at the 3800’s roughness for once... however it still happens.

:cheers: Chrysler 300 - 2.7L V-6 190 HP

Is there a midget with a camera involved somewhere? Sometimes, it's just better not to know... :ph34r:

As a Buick owner, I receive a magazine by Buick every season called "The Style Review." (I definitely look forward to it ^_^ ) I just received the Fall 2005 issue and on the cover is a Lucerne. My first thought was "That grille looks like it's all chrome..." but I immediately rejected the idea as light reflecting off of the Lucerne's glossy black grille. So I looked inside. By page 16, there was no doubt about it. Both of the Lucernes pictured have chrome grilles. I scanned in the cover and page 16 so you guys can check it out. (as a side note, they also have an article titled “Seattle on our Minds” on pages 26-29 where they're touring Seattle in a Park Avenue! How cool! Can’t wait to read it!) Cover (obviously a Lucerne CXS): Page 16 (Apparently a Lucerne CX or CXL)

I'd wait until your parents see them & drive them before thinking they've been written off. :)

You forgot about the rumored Hybrid option for the Ecotec. :lol:

I few interior pics taken by a friend of mine at the Texas State Fair this weekend (plus the window sticker http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons//AH-HA_wink.gif). I was shocked that the SS has the Wood trim interior as part of the package:

Uhm... The 2006 BMW 525 has 215 hp and starts at $42,500. Last year (yes 2004MY) It only had 184 hp. Are you saying that a 2004 BMW 5-series with a 184hp I-6 isn't a luxury car? It was $42k without any options? Horse power is not everything.

I'm waiting for someone to come on here and say "Of Course the Lucerne was quieter. They were talking to a GM engineer..." :rolleyes: Regardless of all those who have nothing positive to say about the Buick Lucerne, Good Job GM. Congrats on showing that the "Quiet-Tuning" effort is paying off. B)

I really think you're nitpicking too much. There isn't anything "vulgar" about the sound of the 3800 in the LaCrosse/Allure. It may be a little louder or sound different in comparison to whatever your perception has lead you to believe, but no one could be that dense, narrow minded, or snobbish to literally become offended by the way the 3800 sounds (inside or outside of the car.) "Awful" is just way too strong of a term to be justified.

Buick's sedan line-up for almost 10 years has been Regal/Century & LeSabre/Park Avenue, so the LaCrosse & Lucerne do make a full revision of sedan remodels. LaCrosse equals Century & Regal. Lucerne Equals LeSabre & Park Avenue. The comment has nothing to do with adding an additional sedan or continuing refreshes/updates for existing models.

I can understand why you may not like it, but I seriously suggest sitting in it and trying it out before thinking it'll be a complete failure. The interior space is more than enough & so is the trunk. Not everyone shopping in the large car market is looking for the "largest" vehicle out there. Besides, against imports (Avalon) & Lexus (ES330), the Lucerne's trunk is still larger. I don't see LeSabre or Park Avenue owners left wanting from their previous car compared to the new Lucerne. I know I'm not. In pics, the Impala & Lucerne's dash may look similar, but the Lucerne's interior is far better executed and more upscale in person.

When I went to Dallas last time, Hertz had nothing but Camrys, Avalons, & Kia Amantis available. All I could do was roll my eyes. I still go with Avis. Amazingly, they didn't have a LaCrosse available. I ended up with a LeSabre. It'll take some time for rental fleets to impact resale value... the abused rental cars have to trickle down to "used car market" before they start showing quality/reliability symptoms. I give it 3 years if they continue to up their Fleet sales at this rate.

Well, eventually... their current line-up is still dreadful. I forgot how much so until I looked at the website: ION, VUE, & Relay... ugh.

Doesn't surprise me... what did everyone expect when the domestics stepped away from the fleet market? The Fleets have to buy their cars from some where. It's not as if "fleet sales" is just a magical dumping ground in fairy land that Ford & GM can just choose a number of vehicles and then "poof" they magically have a "fleet buyer" for that certain amount of vehicles. It's a real and legitimate market. Less profitable and image degrading (until the imports make it respectable), but still a legitimate market.

If I had to buy one today (10/10/2005): Buick Lucerne CXS. I'd have to place an order for it.

Interesting that the Chevrolet HHR alone might come close to matching Toyota's Scion division as a whole.

This conversation/discussion/debate has just seriously degraded beyond belief in the last few posts... heh... If you're following the New Testament: No one is entitled to salvation. Only those who endure to the end will receive it. Even God endorses the expulsion of those unworthy. Jews were not individually condemned but their birth right to salvation was. Jews are still eligible, but have to reapply and accept the new principles outlined in the Greek Scriptures. :P (I'm not condemning the Jewish religion or Jewish beliefs at all... I'm strictly looking at it from a New testament perspective) All the plants won't be gone. It is not a requirement for plants to only be employed by Unionized people. Several current unionized members will still have jobs available, but I seriously doubt they'll be available under a Union contract.

Exactly Fly... Polish Kris Tell that to BMW, not me. It's BMW who's introducing cheaper models to boost market share and sales. If I had it my way, I wouldn't introduce any model under the Phantom... only equivalent or above. The reason for mentioning the Phantom's HORRIBLE sales numbers is to indicate the true reasoning behind BMW's decision to introduce less expensive models. Regardless of image, BMW did not buy Rolls-Royce to build it as a courtesy for a privileged few. BMW isn't that generous to its clientele. BMW purchased Rolls-Royce to make money. Rolls-Royce is not profitable at its current sales level. BMW has to introduce less expensive models (and attempt to benefit from RR's reputation) to boost sales. Go back and reread the article.

rebates are provided by manufacturer if I'm correct. The deep discounts on the 300 have come from the dealer. I've seen ads that have included the 300 in the employee pricing "special" even though the 300 wasn't included by DCX directly.

Many of us are not rooting for the collapse of our own American bred companies. A lot of the opinions expressed here are of a desire for change in what is felt to be a flawed and unhealthy way of doing business. Many here feel that the UAW was a necessity at one point and served Americans well. Unfortunately, its existence is now handicapping the companies involved instead of helping them. I personally fail to see the "we're in this together" mentality that the UAW & corporations are suppose to have. The "executives" are supposedly in charge of managing the company but have been told by the UAW time and time again "not to look our way" for flexibility. GM has looked in other areas to trim costs. GM has already cut American white collar/salaried jobs by 33% since 2000. GM is also trying to reduce its purchasing costs by 20% over the next 3 years. Some executives are not receiving salaries. GM has to be allowed to maintain efficiency in all areas to survive competitively. Not all those white collar jobs would have been cut and suppliers would not be under such cost scrutiny if GM was able to cut costs more evenly across the company. Unfortunately, the UAW prevents GM from being able to run plants as efficiently as possible: When there's nothing to build, the UAW members are paid. When jobs should be reduced and automation implemented, it's not. When plants need to be closed, GM has to find places for those UAW members or they go into a job bank… instead of receiving severances. When GM needs to trim benefits, they can only do so (and have done so) on the white collar/ salaried side. They can not reduce benefits of a UAW member. Most of all UAW jobs allowed to be cut have been through natural attrition/early retirement which results in the UAW members still receiving full retirement benefits.Sacrifices have been made: by suppliers, by executives, and by the white collar/salaried workers.

What were the positives?

Delphi is a global technology manufacturer. They may be based in Troy, but they have alternate HQs in Paris, Tokyo and Sao Paulo. The Bankruptcy only impacts the US operations of Delphi. The company will survive the bankruptcy in some capacity somewhere. What does this agreement actually cover? only Salaries, or Salaries and benefits? pensions? Everything is still suppose to be business as usual for the time being. No immediate impact on plants or offices. Everyone is still required & expected to show up for work on Monday.

Sad... very sad. Rolls-Royce is NOT suppose to be equal to Bentley. It's suppose to be above Bentley. It exposes the failure of BMW to maintain the status of Rolls-Royce and Volkswagen's success at managing the Bentley British marque. The move to a "less formal" appearance is just flat out scary. I see RR losing respectability for the sake of increasing sales. Notice the article doesn't even come close to mentioning the horribly disappointing sales record of the new Phantom. Rolls-Royce has been the ultimate luxury vehicle as long as I have been alive. I hope that's not entirely lost by BMW's market repositioning of the fabled brand.