VenSeattle

"When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company…"

The company will not survive in my eyes. They are based in Troy. The company will literally "burn to the ground" if anything goes through. Not to say I support it....but if hundreds of thousands retiree's pentions are jacked with.....good luck.

Won't happen.

Delphi will have to keep paying those and the hourly wages under the current agreement.

Notice what's in bold? AGREEMENT!

[post="25921"]<{POST_SNAPBACK}>[/post]

Delphi is a global technology manufacturer. They may be based in Troy, but they have alternate HQs in Paris, Tokyo and Sao Paulo. The Bankruptcy only impacts the US operations of Delphi. The company will survive the bankruptcy in some capacity somewhere.

What does this agreement actually cover? only Salaries, or Salaries and benefits? pensions?

Everything is still suppose to be business as usual for the time being. No immediate impact on plants or offices. Everyone is still required & expected to show up for work on Monday.

Sad... very sad. Rolls-Royce is NOT suppose to be equal to Bentley. It's suppose to be above Bentley. It exposes the failure of BMW to maintain the status of Rolls-Royce and Volkswagen's success at managing the Bentley British marque.

The move to a "less formal" appearance is just flat out scary. I see RR losing respectability for the sake of increasing sales. Notice the article doesn't even come close to mentioning the horribly disappointing sales record of the new Phantom.

Rolls-Royce has been the ultimate luxury vehicle as long as I have been alive. I hope that's not entirely lost by BMW's market repositioning of the fabled brand.

To kind of expand of Fly’s statement…

When one is under the influence of a particular culture, religion, belief, a form of brainwashing, etc... and is COMMANDED or PERSUADED to perform a suicide mission of any sort (suicide bombing, kamikaze, etc) for the preservation of their beliefs AND their own soul... that goes into an entirely OTHER realm of existence or plain of reality.

One part is defense: Defending their beliefs, life style, loved ones, country, etc
One part fear: Fear of being dishonored, fear of losing their own or their family's eternal salvation by their Deity.

I don't feel this unique type of suicide is responsible for this little girl's death. Nor do I believe it’s a contributing factor to those who call the Suicide Help Line. :huh:

I'm aware that this discussion has occurred several times on C&G. Unfortunately, much has been lost with the crashes... Reasons that make Oldsmobile different from Buick (and reasons that GM won't make the same mistake twice):

1) Oldsmobile was unprofitable before it received its $3 billion cash infusion. That cash infusion resulted in the excusive NorthStar 4.0 V8 & 3.5 V6. Great engines but terribly expensive to manufacture. Expensive debut of technology features like 4-Channel Stability control. Oldsmobile never recouped that investment, let alone returned to profitability.

2) Every vehicle Oldsmobile offered was engineered on a different platform. That's also extremely expensive (especially when sales volume doesn't justify it):

Alero: N-Platform
Intrigue: W-Platform
Aurora: G-Platform
Silhouette: U-Body
Bravada: GMT360

Compared to Buick's line-up through the 1990's & early 2000's:

W-Platform: Century & Regal
G-Platform: LeSabre, Park Avenue, Riviera

Even now, the Rainier benefited from the R&D costs paid for by Oldsmobile on the Bravada. The Terraza & Rendezvous share mechanics to a degree (both are U-body derived)

The use of the same platform for several vehicles within Buick kept Buick profitable. The use of the same power plant in almost all Buick vehicles kept Buick profitable.

3) Buick retail sales percentage is higher than Oldsmobile's.

By 2000, the majority of Oldsmobile's annual sales were from GM employees and rental companies. The market dried up on Oldsmobile. Oldsmobile, as a whole, was not meeting retail sales expectations: Intrigue and Aurora were both VERY disappointing.

Buick is actually increasing retail sales and decreasing rental sales with each new model debut. Yes, the total sales number is lowering, but with a positive effect that more and more sales are retail purchases. That means higher transaction prices than a fleet sale would provide.

4) Most buyers from Oldsmobile left GM. Oldsmobile buyers did not flock to another GM division like originally planned. As much as import buyers want to believe that domestic buyers are blind... well, they aren't. They didn't appreciate being herded to the nearest Chevrolet, Buick, or Cadillac dealership when it was time to trade-in. GM LOST most of Oldsmobile's customers when the division closed.

5) Buick is successful in China. It could eventually result in both market line-ups merging into one international portfolio, but Buick is having a successful resurgence in a critical global market.

6) Buick is merging with Pontiac & GMC. That cuts down a lot of the infrastructure costs,and with proper brand alignment prevents model overlap. GM is finally maneuvering its brands to a point where internal competition (sales cannibalism) is almost a thing of the past.


There are several more reasons why Oldsmobile failed. There are also several more reasons why Buick has a fighting chance. These are just the ones I can come up with at the moment.

I say it requires great strenght to truely take ones own life. Self confidence to get the heck out of here and hopefully on to a better palce.

I believe more people dont do it because they are scared to or dont want to make a mess for someone else to clean up.

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You live in a reality that's of your own. It's not strength that pushes anyone to suicide. It's complete desperation to end one's own pain, fear, and/or suffering brought on by the inability to persevere. That is, if they're sane to begin with.

Prove me wrong and knock yourself out. :P

You know I'm joking... I'm not really asking you to commit suicide for the sake of an argument.

"How about $6,983,188,500 lost due to the cost disadvantage GM suffers vs. Toyota and Honda, etc, last year ALONE? Yes, alomst 7 BILLION DOLLARS IN ONE YEAR."

Wow, so now Ven just said GM was profitable last year yet you have a 7 billion dollar loss ? Interesting. Now is that the total health care cost at GM ? Interesting, I guess once again we are rallying for no health insurance what so ever, thereby eliminating this cost disadvantage ? Interesting. All this happened last year or was it first 2 quarters this year ?

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You fail to take into account that GMAC is apart of GM. GMAC has been carrying GM for awhile. But yes, GM as a global company was profitable last year.

2004 Annual Report:

Mixed Results in 2004

In 2004, GM earned net income of $3.6 billion excluding special items, or reported net income of $2.8 billion, on record revenues of approximately $193 billion. Solid figures, considering the tough competitive conditions in most of our markets around the globe. But overall, it was a year in which we did not take the step forward we were aiming for.

There were some noteworthy successes. GMAC reported annual earnings growth for the 10th consecutive year, and a record for the sixth year in a row, with a profit of $2.9 billion. GMAC also continued to restructure its balance sheet and diversify its funding sources, significantly reducing its risk to adverse credit rating developments.

Our global automotive operations had their second highest sales volume in GM’s history, with market share gains in three of our four regions around the world.

Buick will be cut quick. Not worth going into details, just watch theres 4 model years between now and 010.

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Please... go into details. Why are you sure "Buick will be cut quick"?

Thats good news. I havent heard much about it recently, I just remember GM had the XV12 in the Cien, and I'm guessing it will be the top engine in the ULS(or whatever it will be called). It just seems like its taking forever to debut.

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Well, I don't know if it's a Northstar V12 or the XV12 or what ever they're going to call it. But, the future Cadillac flagship is suppose to have a V8 & V12. Last rumor was 2008 or 2009... Not sure, but it's suppose to still be coming.

So Gm was profitable last year and the year before ?

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Are you saying GM wasn't? Check it out. GM has been running in the Red for the past two quarters. Not the past two years. Division by division is a different issue. Overall, GM has been in the Black up until this year's Q1 & Q2.

That is only a 20hp increase in 12 years. Why should Cadillac just be competitive? Cadillac should be GMs best. I think they either need to give the Northstar more hp, or make a V10 or V12 Northstar.

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They are making a V12 Northstar.

So who at GM thought it was a good idea to spin off Delphi and then buy the parts back at a premium?

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If I recall at the time, it was in Delphi's best interest. The market was strong. Delphi could take on contracts with competing manufacturers without it becoming a conflict of interest.

I'm sure the "premium" developed over time when everyone started pressing for cuts on the supplier side and GM couldn't outsource to an overseas supplier due to UAW relations. If GM would have gone with the lowest bidder, Delphi would have filed for bankruptcy much sooner. Fixed costs have become an obvious cause for Delphi's current unprofitability. Delphi can't compete against cheaper labor overseas.

Wonder if Wagoner and Co would give back those big bonus's they got last year.........and the year before..........and the year before............and the year before...........and the year before..........and the year before...... and the year before?????????

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Why should they? GM was profitable then. Are the UAW members willing to give back their huge profit sharing checks that they received over the past several years? No... Why should they? GM was profitable then.

I think whats hurting its sales the most is the CTS, being so similar in size, but costing much less. Anybody know when a new Northstar will be out? I think its a good time for the Northstar to be updated to about 350+hp.

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The STS is selling perfectly fine. It will easily make its sales goal this year.

The STS's Northstar IS the new Northstar. It's practically an all new engine for RWD/AWD applications. 320hp under normal aspiration and 469 hp supercharged is completely competitive in this market.

The 320 hp may increase in a year or two once the STS gets the 6-sp across the line-up, but a new Northstar will not be required for that.

"Everyone feels betrayed and stabbed in the back," said Bryan Stoner, 48, an electrician at a Delphi plant in Kokomo, Ind.

The UAW faces a difficult choice: accept the painful concessions or take its chances with a bankruptcy.

"If they acquiesce to the demands of Delphi, clearly that sends a signal to the rest of the unionized suppliers," Phillippi said. "They're going to want to get the same deal."

Daniel Mitchell, a labor expert at the University of California in Los Angeles, said any concessions the union gives to Delphi will likely become the outline for future bargaining sessions between the automakers and the UAW.

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So the message becomes: "Go ahead... file for bankruptcy. We'll take our chances."

Delphi replied: "So be it."

It appears that the UAW must feel that if they are not to survive, then the companies they work for must not survive as well.

When Delphi recovers from bankruptcy, it will be a new company… the former company will be gone. The UAW symbolically will get their ultimate wish: for both to fall together and die.

They fail to realize that a company is not human. It can re-organize and resurrect itself after bankruptcy. However, the relationship between the UAW & that new company does not have to be resurrected in any form. The UAW has no value if there is no company to grant them their demands.

It comes down to the UAW deluding itself into believing they had more power than what they actually did.

Ultimately, the corporation has the final trump card. When the UAW decides to go to the extreme of "whetever means necessary" then the company has no other choice than to do the same.

If a Toyota and Lexus sit beside one another, the fit, finish & quality will be similar. Only the materials used will be different. Such can and should be the same for GM. I don't think it's as much that Cadillac is ordinary as Chevrolet's quality and appearance has increased dramatically with its most recent remodels. Yes... the STS can improve. It will continue to get better. The DTS’s interior is superior to the STS imo, and I'm sure the next CTS will show a dramatic step forward above the current STS as well. I don't know if the STS will receive a mid-life interior upgrade but the next generation will also continue the trend. There's only about $20k difference between the FWD V8 powered Impala SS and the STS V8 RWD performance sedan. I still believe you get your $20k worth with the STS. For that matter… the difference is far less between the Impala and the DTS and you definitely get your money's worth with the DTS.

Why wasn't the Lexus GS430 included?

Here’s my ramble… for what it’s worth I believe a lot of the Union manufacturing positions at Delphi will become automated. I remember reading over the past decade or two that several positions never did become automated in Delphi because of requirement to maintain a certain amount of Union positions. It's interesting to read that GM is paying an estimated $2 Billion annual premium for doing business with Delphi. No doubt it is out of necessity to sooth GM UAW members by using UAW part suppliers. I agree with evok that this is history in the making and also a necessity. The Industrial Golden Age has long past and one of the last “Old Era” empires is finally collapsing upon itself. This is what happens when an industry that’s been consolidating for half a century can no longer do so. Several automobile manufacturers & part suppliers have gone out of business in the past 50 years. They just didn’t make that big of an impact because someone was there to pick up the pieces/buy the assets and keep running business as usual. Delphi was once an internal division of GM… this is a small scale example of what an empire like GM will look like if it too falls into Bankruptcy.

love that sig Ven...

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Thanks zoom! :) It took me awhile. I'm just a beginner.

I usually avoid the lounge for that very reason... But sometimes it's fun. I tried logging onto AIM to say hi, but it's currently unavailable. I'll try to catch you online sometime soon. :)

Up late drinking? http://www.cheersandgears.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/AH-HA_wink.gif

I look at those pictures Ven and ask.....who would spend $100k on a vehicle that has less power than a $70k z06 yet not peform as well simply because of a power hard-top?

Stupid GM pricing and executives that allow it.

Nothing more, 'nor less.

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Uhm... DOHC and supercharger enthusiasts that can afford to pay the price of admission to avoid the Chevrolet Dealership experience for an oil change. I seriously think most of them would prefer to have their Cadillac Escalade Platinum & XLR-V serviced by the same dealer.

To me, the XLR is superior to the Corvette in almost every way. That includes the hardtop convertible feature. If I could afford my choice, I'd go for the XLR without a second thought.

Cadillac deserved a version of the Corvette decades ago. It's a shame that it's taken GM this long to cut through the bureaucracy to do it.

Other than loyalty to the Cadillac mark, there really is no reason to pick the STS-V over the E55/E63 or M5.  I think the STS-V halo vehicle will end up causing more harm than good to Cadillac's image.  No way the mags will have anything postive to say when compared to the M5 or CLS55.

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Yep. Nothing positive to say about a 469hp Cadillac sports sedan. It has the same hp as the E55 & only 31 hp less than the V10 BMW. Still thousands cheaper than both. I think the mags are going to surprise you. The STS-V goes beyond simply catering to "Cadillac" fans and brand loyalists.

Comparing the STS-V to the CLS55 is a stretch and inappropriate. It's far more expensive and is not the STS's direct competition. But still, the STS-V has the same HP as the CLS55.

For those who are interested in looking at the cold hard numbers...

2006 Honda Civic Sedan:

DX/LX trim:

Headroom (in., front/rear) 39.4 / 37.4
Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.2 / 34.6
Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.7 / 52.4
Hiproom (in., front/rear) 51.9 / 51.0
Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 12.0
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 90.9

EX Trim:

Headroom (in., front/rear) 38.1 / 36.7
Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.2 / 34.6
Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.6 / 52.3
Hiproom (in., front/rear) 51.9 / 51.0
Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 12.0
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 88.4

2006 Honda Civic Coupe:

DX/LX trim

Headroom (in., front/rear) 38.0 / 35.1
Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.6 / 30.3
Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.9 / 52.1
Hiproom (in., front/rear) 53.0 / 49.2
Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 11.5
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 83.7

EX Trim:

Headroom (in., front/rear) 37.8 / 34.7
Legroom (in., front/rear) 42.6 / 30.3
Shoulder Room (in., front/rear) 53.9 / 52.1
Hiproom (in., front/rear) 53.0 / 49.2
Cargo Volume (cu. ft.) 11.5
Passenger Volume (cu. ft.) 83.0

I'm pleased on all accounts. The more I see it, the more I like it. The Yukon looks different enough exterior wise where you won't be confusing them like before. There are very few things I'd change on the Tahoe's interior so I'm not disappointed by the carried over interior. The extra touches of metal & wood trim help dress it up even more. BPG dealerships have a hit IMO.