VenSeattle

Regarding new LaCrosse.....I'll wager money......this car will fill the same slot as the outgoing car...

Which LaCrosse? The US midsize sedan or the luxury sedan sold in China? Remember, this LaCrosse is replacing both.

mid-to-high 20's to mid-30's (MAX).....

Current LaCrosse: Base MSRP: $24,250 - $32,380

Current Lucerne: Base MSRP: $27,275 - $38,980

Which one will it be replacing? One or the other? Both?

and will not attract Lexus buyers.....

Hmmm... Enclave has. Why shouldn't the LaCrosse if it's good enough?

plus, as already mentioned, FWD Lincolns start at around $37K and max out at almost $46K......hell, you have to be in a Super to be that pricey in a Lucerne.

FWD Lincolns start around $32k (Lincoln MKz Base MSRP: $32,155 - $34,045) and up to $40k without options (MKsBase MSRP: $37,665 - $39,555). Lincoln is also considering a smaller compact (4-cyl?) which will allow Lincoln to drop the entry price even further. (starting to look a lot like Buick's price model insn't it?)

I'm not saying it's going to be a bad car....I think the new LaCrosse will be a huge improvement over the current one. It's just that I find it funny all the grandiose ideas everyone has about where in the marketplace this vehicle is going to land......

Grandiose? For Buick to compete with a Lincoln? Come-on...The two brands have been cross-shopped for years. I know several people in Texas that have switched between the 2 brands (Riviera against Mark-series, LeSabres & Park Avenues against Continentals.) Both brands have appealed and catered to a less pretentious clientele for quite some time. We'll know more once stats and prices are announced, but the new LaCrosse appears more inline to replace the Lucerne with the Insignia-based Regal to fill the spot of the current LaCrosse. As I've said before, I don't expect Buick to be as expensive as the Lincoln competition, but I expect the pricing to be closer than it has been in the past.

I'll take your wager. We can discuss terms offline... :AH-HA_wink:

But but but... It's an Epsilon sedan priced like a Cadillac CTS... this can't be allowed!!!

I haven't driven this version of the 9-3, but would love the chance. I think it looks fantastic and would be great to own.

Uhm... Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a good thing.

I agree with this post. I also took the liberty of emphasizing the most important part, in my opinion anyway.

The part emphasized is true. You have to look at where (as in brand) GM is spending R&D dollars and where (what countries) GM is spending the money as well. Chevrolet, Opel, Buick and Cadillac are getting the R&D budget. The rest of the brands are benefiting from the results. It's also less expensive to perform R&D overseas, which is where almost the entire R&D appears to be happening these days.... at least for Buick, Opel, and most of Chevrolet's sub-midsize line-up.

Regardless of the dollars spent at Toyota, BMW and Mercedes-Benz still stay toe-to-toe with Lexus. Both with smaller budgets. The amount spent does not determine the product's result. See Toyota's R&D billions flushed down the toilet with the Tundra. GM made a superior product on a much smaller budget.

GM R&D dollars also benefits from mass. While Toyota has been busy developing more and more vehicles that are "market specific" like the Avalon, Verza, Tundra, Sequoia, FJ Cruiser, etc... GM is trying to move away from that by selling its portfolio of vehicles globally.

All I'm saying is don't write off the LaCrosse because Corporate GM doesn't have money. There's no sign of cost-cutting with the LaCrosse so far and the two-mode tech R&D was already paid for elsewhere. It appears Buick is finally showing us the results from the $3 Billion earmarked for the Brand 4 years ago.

I just don't think it will be big enough (especially in width) to compete with the Lincoln......and I know it won't be expensive enough either.....hell a Lucerne Super isn't even close to a loaded MKS in price even.....but at least it's close in size....

At least hopefully it won't be a rental queen though....

What?

Size can't be your reasoning to dismiss the new LaCrosse. Your choices of untouchable sedans stretched from the 191" ES350 to the 204" MKs.

It can't be power. Both the ES350 and MKs have under 300hp. Even the current LaCrosse has 303hp. Lucerne Super has 292hp.

Lucerne vs MKs MSRP price?

-- Lucerne Super starts at $38,980

-- Lucerne Super loaded is $45,100

-- Lincoln MKs FWD starts at $37,665

-- Lincoln MKs FWD Loaded is $45,670 (including Technology package, Navigation Package, with the Ultimate Package)

The AWD MKs just adds $1,900 in price. I don't see a disparity between Buick and Lincoln pricing.

I personally don't think the new LaCrosse will match the MKs in price or size. But it could come close. A couple of things are pretty sure:

- It will be more expensive than the current LaCrosse

- It'll be larger than the ES350 and MKz

- Everything indicates the new LaCrosse will eventually offer AWD and a two-mode hybrid version

- The new LaCrosse's interior is already a step above the Lucerne Super

As for your obligatory "rental queen" comment, I believe Buick has already taken care of that. Your chance of finding a rental LaCrosse is about as great as finding a rental Accord. Next to never.

I don't see any reason why the new LaCrosse cannot compete with Lincoln or Lexus. Warranty, features, reliability, style, and quality (based on the Enclave and SUPER editions) appear to be present and accounted for at Buick. An Insignia-based Regal slotting beneath the LaCrosse would be perfect to help position the LaCrosse against the ES & MKs.

Sorry.

I just don't see a Malibu-based LaCrosse even remotely competing with MKS or ES and GS......

If your opinion is strictly based on platform sharing, then why can't a NG-Malibu-based Buick LaCrosse compete against a Ford Taurus-based Lincoln MKs and a Toyota Camry-based Lexus ES350?

And BTW... the current Malibu LTZ already competes well with the Camry XLE. It doesn't have all the available options, but interior quality and design are fine. The NG LaCrosse appears to exceed both of those by far. I’m sure available options will also.

Very good show. Much better than the grainy pics that everyone whined over.

Regarding exterior details, it definitely appears there will be at least two powertrains. Some have dual exhaust and some don’t. I do like how the dual exhaust is integrated into the rear bumper.

Looks good in red. The interior looks very nice. Glad to see adjustable rear seat headrests.

If they're looking for the LaCrosse to compete with the MKS then the LaCrosse is bigger than we expect. I can see why the Regal would be appropriate to slot underneath the LaCrosse. The Regal will probably be the size of the MKZ.

I just mean that Buick shouldn't aspire to be Lexus. It would do better to focus on a car company with a full line of appealing cars like Nissan. An altima type car would be just the ticket for Buick.

If the Insignia does indeed come to the US as Buick Regal, it'll have Nissan wishing to be more like Buick.

Interesting news to say the least. The "Regal" on display in NA would definitely explain why the Aura has been delayed pending a restyle. I'm skeptical about the Riviera news. I want to believe it... We'll see.

Looks much better than in the photos before. It has my vote...

More news -------------------->

Hewlett-Packard to cut nearly 25,000 jobs in EDS reorganization

04:50 PM CDT on Monday, September 15, 2008

By VICTOR GODINEZ / The Dallas Morning News

[email protected]

Hewlett-Packard Co. said today that it plans to cut about 24,600 jobs as part of its purchase and reorganization of Electronic Data Systems Corp.

Most of the cuts will come from EDS's 140,000 employees worldwide, while the remaining cuts will come at H-P. About half of the total job losses will be in the United States.

The cuts are part of H-P’s plan to integrate the Plano-based information technology outsourcing firm.

The $13.9 billion deal, which was completed last month, was widely expected to result in layoffs.

A Malibu LTZ with 4-cylinder and 6 speed combo is 3649 pounds, a full 200 more than the MKZ with front drive and 6-speed auto.

The LaCrosse will be heavier, at least 3700 pounds, probably closer to 3800, so the MKZ is a lightweight by comparison.

Ugh... did you or did you not think before quoting that? The 3.6l V6 is still standard on the LTZ trim, which is the weight quoted. Why do you think there's a 200lb difference between the LT & LTZ trim levels? Geez!! Straight from Chevrolet's website:

3.6L V6 DOHC Engine with Variable Valve Timing (VVT)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The 3.6L V6 DOHC engine with Variable Vale Timing (VVT) is standard in LTZ(1) and available in 2LT.(2) The engine generates 252 horsepower at 6300 rpm and is mated to a six-speed automatic, electronically controlled transmission with overdrive and has an EPA estimated MPG 17 city, 26 highway.

1 Includes power-adjustable pedals.

2 Requires Engine Package.

The 4-cyl LTZ is a special order trim package only, and is optional. It's called the SPRING EDITION LTZ:

Four-Cylinder Spring Package

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Available for LTZ, the package includes:

EPA estimated MPG 22 city, 32 highway with ECOTEC 2.4L engine

ECOTEC 2.4L engine

Electric Power Steering (EPS) assist

Chrome exhaust tip

17-inch chrome-tech bight aluminum wheels

P225/50R17 touring, blackwall tires

The 4-cyl Malibu is lighter than the MKZ. The 6-cyl Malibu is heavier than the 6-cyl MKZ. Who cares.

The Aura XR has decent handling, if the LaCrosse handles better then it will be an okay car, but they will tune it to float for the geezers and make the steering unresposnive, that is what Buick does. There is no doubt in my mind that this car will be like a dressed up Malibu, 10-15 more hp, softer ride, "quiet tuning," a few more features inside, but basically the same car, and they'll price it at $26-32,000.

This is the next gen Malibu's platform, not the current generation Malibu, so how can it be a dressed-up Malibu that doesn't exist yet? This platform will come in two different versions too - SWB & LWB. Both are suppose to support AWD. This isn't the same platform as the current Malibu or current Aura. See the new Opel Insignia for references.

The LaCrosse CX & CXL received the Regal GS' tuned-suspension as standard when it debuted. Even without driving it (and I have - both the Regal GS & the LaCrosse) I know that the car doesn't float or perform anywhere close to how you insult it. It has a softer suspension than a BMW, but nothing really extraordinarily different from the rest of the mid-size sedan crowd.

I've driven the Azera. It's a perfectly fine upscale sedan with unremarkable performance and absolutely no personality. Even the Sales rep questioned if I'd actually be impressed with the car (which I wasn't.)

I'm planning to go back and test drive a Genesis soon.

The next-gen Azera is suppose to be really impressive though.

I actually like the MKS look, though the MKS is too big and too slow for me to be interested, but when the MKZ gets that styling theme next year, I think it will look really good. The interior looks like it will be much nicer also, plus ecoboost is coming. The LaCrosse won't be better than an MKZ, it will float and have non-responsive slushy steering, and it will no doubt be over weight. The MKZ is lighter than a 4-cylinder Malibu.

Are you correct about anything?

2008 FWD Lincoln MKZ -

Length = 190.5"

Weight = 3,469 lbs

2008 AWD Lincoln MKZ -

Length = 190.5"

Weight = 3,672 lbs

2008 FWD Chevrolet Malibu 4-Cyl LS

Length = 191.8"

Weight = 3,415 lbs

2008 FWD Chevrolet Malibu 4-Cyl LT

Length = 191.8"

Weight = 3,436 lbs

And how in the hell do you know anything about the LaCrosse's handling and performance on a new platform? You're just making things up, again.

Or GM's Mercury Milan.

Ford wishes... I expect the new LaCrosse could be better than the MKZ....

I watched a long show about this on the science channel a while back - fascinating.

And the physicists were visibly giddy about it all.

I did too. They had a series of documentaries over the weekend that appeared to lead up to this (headliner was "What on Earth is Wrong with Gravity".)

I always enjoy watching them when I get the chance and actually look forward to hearing about the discoveries made from the tests with the LHC.

hehe....

Citroën Type A

It has been stated time & time again, if you look at Buick, Pontiac, & GMC as a whole they are a complete/full line-up franchise. So why not just brand them as single complete line-up under a single brand?

I know I know... not a popular opinion, but still... If GM were to consolidate the three brands into a single marketable brand, Buick is the only brand that's been able to sell all three types of vehicles: premium sedans, sports/sporty vehicles (convertibles/ coupes/ muscle cars), and utility vehicles (minivans, CUVs, & SUVs.)

Buick's sporty coupes, roadsters, and convertibles could adopt "red illuminated interiors" with brushed metal trim and radical interior colors while shedding the traditional waterfall grille for something more sleek, integrated, and body colored…

Buick's sedans could continue to be premium/luxury sedans including performance variants that share characteristics with the coupes, convertibles, roadsters (same trim elements as the two-doors: red illuminated interiors, brushed metal trim, body colored grilles, etc...). These trims could be carried under one of Buick’s performance designations – such as GSX, Grand National, or T-Type.

Buick's SUVs, CUVs, minivans etc could all carry Denali as their highest trim level, while continuing to be a more premium alternative to Chevrolet (like the Traverse is compared to Enclave.)

Marketing would be for just one brand. GM would be able to ask more for a coupe, convertible, or sedan under the Buick brand. Not to mention, more types of vehicles could be jointly developed between the US & China with only Buick in mind without worrying over things that are currently plaguing the Delta II vehicle (will GM market the Chinese developed Delta II Buick as a US Buick or US Pontiac - It's ludicrous that selling a Delta II Chinese Buick as a Pontiac is even being considered.)

rant over...

Uhmmm.... Yeah.... huh.... Yeah.

It just doesn't look like the same vehicle... at all.

I miss my Ultra, but not its gray interior. I drove it for 2 years and it was doing fine when I sold it and went into this lease on the '06 Lacrosse. Now that the lease is winding down, I am looking into a Lucerne with the Northstar.

I was under the impression that the '09 Lucerne Super had the 5.3?

Nope. The 2009 Lucerne SUPER still has the 292hp 4.6l V8. The LaCrosse SUPER has the 5.3l V8.

I stopped in, and within an hour I had traded my new GMC on a Corvette.

:useless:

Anyway, they are in a world of hurt now, but at least they are showing signs of fixing their problems...I just wonder if it's too late or not.

I posted some Chrysler articles just for you and CMG for encouragement...

Trevor Creed resigned from the position of Chrysler's head of design, and as of today is succeeded by Ralph Gilles, the man who designed the 300C. Since every change at the top comes with a "new sheriff in town" speech -- or at least one-liner -- this is what Gilles had to say: "It's definitely time for a new aesthetic at Chrysler. ... We're done with the 'edge' look."

Gilles says he wants the Pentastar's cars to look more "organic." This being art, however, that could really mean anything. For concrete examples and practical considerations he mentioned the Dodge Zeo and Chrysler Ecovoyager, and said that he wants to design "sexy" cars that will appeal around the world. Intriguing statements from the gent known for a car that epitomizes the American muscle sedan, but we are all in favor, and we say "aye." The only question is how soon will they start the redesign, and what will organic look like?

While everyone is aware of what GM, Honda and Toyota have been up to when it comes to fuel-saving technology, Chrysler has been playing it close to the chest. The Auburn Hills-based automaker, however, will show its dealers three new all-electric cars at the end of this month that are said to be production capable. Jim Press, the Chrysler exec who came from rival and current hybrid-leader Toyota, added that Chrysler's future platforms were being designed with electrification in mind and that is still has access to technology from its previous owner, Daimler.

Like General Motors, Chrysler seems convinced that its EVs need to have plug-in capability. The goal, says Press, is 300 miles of range. To make that a reality, a very good set of batteries will be necessary – likely lithium-ions – and Press assures us that his company is working with multiple suppliers. Will any of the production-ready models be anything like the concepts shown off last year in Detroit? We'll see...

At the Western Automotive Journalists' dinner this week, Jim Press, President of Chrysler, told me exactly what I wanted to hear. When I asked how he plans on differentiating the Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep brands, he put it this way: Jeep will remain an iconic off-roader, with no soft-roaders spoiling the brand; Dodge will be the performance brand, but will also be a volume play; and Chrysler focuses on luxury, competing with brands like Acura. Maybe this type of brand differentiation just fits conventional wisdom, but it seems like a smart plan to me. Yet, in speaking more generally about the cars he wants the Chrysler corporation to produce, Press said that they should appeal to enthusiasts, and that he wasn't interested in making an appliance. Companies such as BMW have done a good job with that strategy, but Toyota has risen to the top based on its decidedly non-visceral Camry. This point was particularly interesting based on the fact that Press headed Toyota Motors North America before coming over to Chrysler.

The dinner was a great opportunity to hear from a top player in the automotive industry, and more importantly, to get an idea of what's going to happen at Chrysler. Press spent a while talking about how American automakers have been yearning for the past, and developing their strategies based on how things used to be. The paradigm of Detroit became the more cars you sell, the more money you lose. "For every four Crossfires we sold," Press said, "we had to lay off one employee." At Chrysler, he is working on cutting production, something that has become surprisingly difficult to do amongst American automakers, as production cuts entail renegotiating supplier and union contracts. But Chrysler currently has greater flexibility, as it is a private corporation, so is not beholden to quarterly reports.

As for Chrysler's product plans, Press said the company will launch seven new vehicles in 2010, a year that he sees as a recovery period for the industry. Chrysler is developing a new fuel-efficient engine dubbed Phoenix, and Press enticingly said that the company is much closer to producing an electric car than most people realize. Most importantly, he said that Chrysler is working towards the electrification of the automobile. It seems most major automakers recognize that electric cars are the future, and each are developing strategies to lead this market.