VenSeattle

If anyone else has said this, then I agree with them... but I feel the Suburban, Yukon XL, & EXT look better than the SWB ones simply because their sizes are more in proportion to the exterior styling... as if they've grown into their exaggerated features. None of them are unattractive, and I’d be happy with any of them if I were in the market for one. They don't leave their market segments “wanting.”

Turbo200... I'll publicly admit that you're an intelligent guy and are a terrific contributor to C&G. So don't take the posts above personally... I'll PM you tomorrow when I have more time and we'll continue this on from there. Ok? (no ,this is not a matter of getting the last word/post)

I'm not saying people did not originally denounce GM from a bad experience, what I said was exactly what you stated in your last paragraph... it's bad press that's keeping them from trying GM again. GM can't change the past, but the media can change the present. A well written "glowing" review (biased or not) can persuade the most adamant disbeliever into trying something again. Your Tahoe example illustrates that. The STS example backs up what usually happens. In both cases, the media is the wall or the doorway through the wall. You state consumers are more educated now... how? It's through "reading" more than anything. Most never step into a dealership before deciding the make & model. Most of what they read are rehashed stories about the 70's & 80's from private parties & also current media reviews. Like the "CTS vs valiant attempt at an entry-level luxury car" comparisons & the "Allante vs XLR" comparisons. 15-20 years later, and the media can't look at the new vehicle without rehashing the old. Then there are the ton of negative media articles that have nothing to do with the product but just GM itself. “Good experiences are forgotten but bad experiences are remembered forever” is another phrase. The people who refuse to buy GM cars from the 70's & 80's still preach that today... and tell their children not to buy GM also. Since parents are usually the one helping with the purchase or helping with research... their influence is staggering. A 20-something today who never experienced the 1970's or 1980's would still not consider a GM product just by parental influence… or pressure from friends who repeat what they’ve been taught. ---- My personal evidence? I’ve owned two GM vehicles. No problems. I've owned one foreign make and the transmission had to be replaced. All three new. Before that, I had a Chrysler with a foreign built engine. The engine stalled 8 times in 14 months. It was also new. I grew up in Buicks. My parents have owned 4 of them and only had one mechanical problem: a gasket leak on one of the transmissions. There’s my word of mouth, and "direct/personal" experience.

After reading this last post, there's absolutely nothing I can present as evidence to even be considered rationally. I find your statements HARDLY being objective. You want to quote no-name mechanics, "people" you've talked with, and posts read in forums as PROOF that Japanese cars are perfect, and dismiss consistent evidence from companies that are in business to monitor this. That's fine. That's fine... then by those standards I'm just as reliable as your resources. Believe what you want and dismiss JDP and other resources that come out annually that have been noting that GM's quality is increasing and that the "reliability gap" is gone... And your objective proof in this statement? I can't find ANY long term reliability information to back this up, but you've adopted it as gospel yet you can't accept GM builds equally reliable vehicles when there are reports that conclude that.

Do you think a vehicle that held up poorly over 3 years will miraculously become reliable after 6 years? Cars aren't perfect after 3 years. None of them are. Not even Lexus. The difference is after 3 years, you're usually paying for it. That's my point and the point of the VDS. You're apparently interested in the used car market. JDP focuses on new car buyers who are looking to invest a lot more money in a vehicle that a used car buyer will pay 15% MSRP down the road. The Japanese have their current claim to fame because of these 3 & 5 year studies. GM is now doing excellent in them. In fact GM's improvements in the study outpace the Japanese manufacturers. Doubt that? Then how did GM catch up (and surpass in some situations) in a matter of 5 years?

After market! :) Remember the Yukon accessories brochure posted in the other topic a few weeks back? :)

JDP's Initial Quality Study is for 90 days. Their VDS did cover 5 years, but then they changed it to cover 3 years. The study does not grade 2005 model year vehicles. The 2005 VDS covers MY2001/2 vehicles after 3 years of ownership by the original owner. IIRC, they don't have a one year study. Why? You wouldn't believe it or accept it either. The reason why they don't go out that far is because anything after 3 years typically extends past the 1st vehicle owner, usual standard warranty period that's backed by the manufacturer, too many other factors come into play that can hinder an accurate judge of manufacturer build quality & reliability (irregular maintenance, lack of maintenance, abuse, neglect, standard wear and tear, car accidents), and the vehicle has long been replaced by a different model/platform successor. A sample of what you requested: (fictitious): JDP's 2005 VDS covering 1994 vehicles just came out and (after 10 years) the 1994 Chevrolet Corsica was declared the most reliable compact/midsize vehicle. The 1994 Mitsubishi Expo was declared the most reliable wagon. The 1994 Honda Civic del Sol was the most reliable roadster/coupe. The 1994 Volvo 940 was most reliable premium vehicle. How in the hell does that help you now in the new car market? It doesn't. A 2005 reliability study on 2002 model cars does.

Trinacriabob, the only Japanese brand above Buick & Cadillac on the 2005 JDP list is Lexus. All other Japanese brands are beneath them. Perception is important, but GM has little control over it at the moment. Most people today don't consider GM. It's not because of a bad experience... it's because of bad press and negative association by friends/relatives. It will take the Media & Wall Street promoting GM (an act of god) in order for perception to turn around. The avalanche of negative press has won. GM can't dig itself out on its own. GM needs help from Wall Street & the Media to turn around perception.

I'm just thankful this wasn't Buick's Zeta concept! :lol: I agree that Buick needs a flagship vehicle above Lucerne with several "features" that this vehicle has. A lot of people want luxurious cars that don't translate into sport sedans like CTS or STS.

Turbo, the dramatic decrease in sedan sales for Buick in 2005 was due to a short run of the LeSabre & a late in the year launch for Lucerne. Transition years usually involve both vehicles being readily available on lots. This was not the case for Buick. Notice that there's about a 40,000 decrease in LeSabre sales. That decrease can be traced back to "August-Dec" when dealers stopped receiving inventory. LeSabre sales were healthy before then. As a side note, Lucerne sold almost 6,000 in December and it was NOT included in the Red Tag event. Good show for the Lucerne.

all right... I'll go ahead and post my rant: GM should just give up now. The loyal fans have turned against GM, and the rest of the world won't give them a chance. We're talking about a company that has the highest domestic reliabilty and the top 3 plants in quality for NA. As for reliability & quality control, compare the following two JD Power Vehicle Dependability charts (Long Term Reliability: 3-5 years) and it shows how far GM has come in just the last 5 years: * Cadillac, SAAB, Buick, GMC, Pontiac, Saturn & Chevrolet are ALL more reliable than Toyota (or Honda) just 5 years ago! * Cadillac & Buick have far less as many problems now than Toyota did 5 years ago and are more reliable than even Lexus 5 years ago. * Hell, even Chevrolet is almost as reliable as Lexus was 5 years ago. * Cadillac & Buick are more reliable than Toyota (and Honda) today. * If you thought Toyotas and Hondas were bullet proof in 2000, then GM's vehicles today (especially their premium vehicles) should be considered "Built by the Gods". GM no longer has a reliability problem. Styling is subjective & perceived quality is too. If you don't want to like GM's styling then you won't. If you want to believe GM's hard plastic is brittle while a Honda or VW's hard plastic is premium, durable, and of high quality then you will... but I don't predict cracked and damaged Impala or Lucerne dashboards in the near future (or distant future for that matter.) Perception isn't wrong, but it's not accurate either. It's an opinion. Management, over-bearing union agreements/healthcare costs/pensions, the loss of confidence from the media & Wall Street... Those are GM's biggest problems. It's sad that GM is better than ever and the market is more resistant and hateful towards GM than ever before. If GM can get its internal house in order, win back the media, and win back Wall Street then the public perception problem would take care of itself. Product is already improving at an exponential rate as it is.

I have nothing positive to say in a topic about what's wrong with GM :P :lol:

The interior is nice, but exterior styling is as graceful as an armored truck. BRINKS should be placed somewhere on the exterior. I'll have to see it in person... but I fear it won't help.

No one was denying the LaCrosse is sold to fleets. The LaCrosse is sold to fleets (just like most vehicles), but the the main point was that the LaCrosse is not sold in the same volume as the Century & Regal combined. The other point was that more people are buying the LaCrosse compared to Century & Regal retail sales combined. So, just like the original title of this topic indicates, LaCrosse sales are UP and it's not due to fleet.

Any idea how much the top weighs and how it will effect weight distribution?

That's a good thing. We don't want LaCrosses flooding rental fleets.

Makes me think of a better looking BMW M Coupe

nice website... doesn't make Buick appear dowdy at all. If Buick's positive reputation in Asia continues, I would hope that it will eventually lead to Buick entering Europe. I noticed the SUV also... interesting. Maybe this is a hint that GM will eventually unify both Buick line-ups (America & Asia.)

I've had the Deville & Seville as rentals in the past. When I drove the Lucerne CXL V6 it reminded me of the last gen Seville SLS. It leads me to think the CXS will ride/drive like the Seville STS. Both the SLS & STS ride firmer than Park Avenue, LeSabre, and Deville. I haven't driven the new DTS, but I'll guess the Lucerne will "feel" smaller on the road than the new DTS considering the driving characteristics mirror the Seville. I hope you like it. :)

I'm exactly the opposite. The Atlantic is my favorite concept of all time. :)

The friend of mine that's already placed a deposit on the Sky is ordering it in yellow. Doesn't surprise me because his Saturn SC2 is yellow as well. I showed him this link and he flipped out. lol.

I'll chime in myself. Fly was referring to first year sales. According to the link provided in the [url="http://"""]Fleet Sales Topic[/url], only 5.01% of Rendevous sales went to Fleet in 2002 (64,517 Buick light truck sales; 3,234 of them were Fleet). So, Rendezvous' initial success (as fly pointed out) was due to retail sales, not fleet as you believe. Buick sold 11.9% of light trucks to fleet in 2003. It wasn't until the Rendezvous' 3rd year (2004) that Fleet was pushed up to 30% like it is now.

Ah! Then this is what you want: Ford Motor Company Reo Motor Car Company (Reo=Ransom E. Olds; and his current company at the time) Maxwell-Briscoe Buick ended up merging with Olds Motor Works (R.E.Olds left in 1904) & Maxwell-Briscoe in 1908 to form General Motors.

First engine: 1899? First Buick car: 1901? I have one source that says the first car was in 1900, and another 1901. I'll take 1901 because the car didn't sell until August 1901. 1902?

Albert Champion