turbo200

BUICKMAN: How do you think marketing will affect someone who already knows about the car and doesn't care about it already? How do plan on appealing to Lexus, BMW, MB, Audi, Mazda, Nissan, VW customers? How can marketing affect the appeal of an automobile? How will you get people to CONSIDER your car make, if they've already crossed it off the list?

Is this your sales practice? Dodge and weave? You don't answer direct questions placed in opposition of your viewpoint. Yet you continue to argue your point of view without offering support. So if someone tells you the Accord is a better automobile after driving a Lacrosse, do you simply stare blankly and then revert back to the employee pricing deal you complain about everyday here?

If Cmary were to get a really eye-appealing design, like a Passat, or an Alfa Romeo sedan, this thing would be insurmountable. As it is, the design won't stop people from buying this sophisticated car, Toyota has an image that is unstoppable at this point.

Their's nothing fine about a car that looks as dowdy as the Lacrosse. Nobody but old-time Buick fans will consider it. That's fine if you already like Buick, but most people don't. Get it? They have lost sales catering to the same audience that prefers bland automobiles with a complete lack of refinement and luxury, and plastic bits that make Toyota look like Lexus. They have to figure out how to appeal to Lexus and Toyota and Acura owners. It is possible to steal marketshare from those companies still. Though there are many that won't consider GM based on reliability issues, there are many still that will consider GM because of good experiences and reliability. Marketing a car to me in a different way, won't make that car appeal to me if it doesn't already appeal to me. If they continue to try to impress you, buickman and razoredge, they will go out of business.

Yes, and Toyota is not stupid enough to significantly alter the pricing of thier most important model.

The first one is a sketch of the Centieme concept from 2003. It is a hint at the replacement for the Rendevous, the Enclave. Enclave will debut at this year's NAIAS in january, and will feature a Centieme-inspired design with Velite concept cues as well. The second is the Chevrolet Journey. Some of that is mostly European stuff, though you can see some cues in the Chevrolet Captiva. That design theme is still working its way into Chevy's design language.

Is the Ion/Evoke still on? Have they shelved it completely. I believe me3head in another thread stated it won't be gone completely.

I think you'll be happy with it Chaz, it's beautiful. All the signs point to retro, with a mean and aggressive look nto present in Camaros of yore. It's edgy, and the face has a mean look to it, the face is a slightly more sqaured off and meaner version of the 69, or Crispey's drawing.

OC, Thanks for posting a thoughtful and thorough point-by point analysis. I wholeheartedly agree with all of what you said. It would be great to hear defense and counter arguments, as long as you can remain unbiased and willing to listen to good reason. There is no arguing that GM's cars are behind the competition, that's why Bob Lutz was brought in and is in the post he is in now, to make better cars. GM, and Lutz himself, have admitted their cars need improving. Remember the 4 point plan from Wagoner? Getting competitive was one of the four points.

See Buickman, here's the thing. The product has got to improve, it has to beat the competition, FOR ONCE! Here are some examples of GM's latest, monumental failures. Why are they monumental? Because of what they could have been! We could have been seeing a great revival starting three years ago. We have been waiting for it here on C&G since 2000. Things could have improved on a more monumental scale. Instead, the Lacrosse, Malibu, Impala, G6, Lucerne all fail to chart a signifcant new course of direction for each brand. [enboldened for emphasis on this point, out of all my points, this is probably the most important, better products are needed to restore the image of these brands, and get them back on shopping lists.] In other words, more of the SAME. As much as things could appear to be different, when taken in the scope of the whole automobile world, these cars languish still, and are representative STILL of old GM garbage. Tossable stuff. It's no media bias that the Malibu is powered by only 210 horses, out of an unrefined, coarse-sounding engine when the competition increasingly is offering 240 hps out of incredibly refined and technologically advanced, and luxurious sounding engines. It's no media bias that that Malibu, despite some sound improvements to quality, still looks and feels FISHER PRICE cheesy, especially when you consider it's only been out two years, and the new Camry interior makes it look like it shouldn't even be of this decade. Here's some nifty pics, good luck on your revelations! perhaps the best picture i've seen of the malibu. yes the details are all pretty nice, but the basic design is bland, very bland. OR it's not the accord's fault it offers navigation and the malibu doesn't. There's this it's not the passat's fault VW makes such a finely crafted interior OR [don't tell me it doesn't qualify, MSRP says it does!] Shall I go on?

For GM, making a car has never been that simple. It should be pretty simple. Start out with a solid chassis that doesn't feel disjointed, and can hurl itself about confidently. Engineer some good parts; steering, braking, etc. Add an engine that is powerful, smooth, and won't sound like it will be knock knock knocking on heaven's door in a few years. DON'T TYPIFY THE EXPERIENCE. MAKE THE CAR IT'S OWN EXPERIENCE. Don't go on a parts bins binge! Don't use that same engine that we've complained about it before. AND DON'T CHEAP OUT ON THE EXPERIENCE OF THE CAR. Make something I could be proud of to show off. Something that will make me feel that I GOT DOUBLE my money's worth. Refine the crap out of it. Don't just benchmark, predict how good the competition will get!!!!! Give me longevity, give me solidarity, give me indescribable quality......a feel that only comes from little details, like the thunk the car door makes, the sound the suspension is making as it absorbs road inperfections, the sounds the engine makes as it whirls away, the feel that everything is just right. Cars are more than just inanitmate objects, they are an experience. If you value and have passion for the experience, you don't end up with the malibu.

I thought it was all the GM retirees they were attracting with $50 bonueses :)

Cobalt interior, especially in base form, is not class competitive. The materials need to improve all around, from the cheap dash materials to the cheap "alluminum" materials to the cheap climate controls [my 97 Nissan honestly has better materials there] to the cheap radios [again better in my '97]. Redo the whole interior. It's not that I wouldn't want to own it, but it makes me angry to see it compared to the competition [read new Civic, only one year after cobalt] and the competition makes it look like a rental Cavalier again. Serious redo for the interior. Exterior freshening will only help as long as they keep it going in the right direction there.

I can't believe some of these steps are even part of the "Return to Greatness." What a ridicule you are making of yourself buickman, and showing how far you are inset in the Detroit, Michigan mindset. You don't understand problems of image and mentality. GM is the country's KMart or Payless, and no, this is not just for snobs. But for people who realistically go through and shop for thier cars and compare not only features and style, but quality and sophistication. The differences you feel only when you sit in and drive a 240 hp Accord and then a 210 hp Accord. EDIT: STEP 14????!!!!! :lol: :lol: Right, that's gonna make daddy's rich son pick a Pontiac over a BMW.

The evidence is in the products that have come before it. Are you fully satisfied with the Impala, Lacrosse, Lucerne, G6, Malibu? For someone who has thier eyes open to the world, and is open-minded, then you will see that there are still many sacrifices in those vehicles, that ultimately make them lame ducks. Maybe it's psychological, but it's the old saying, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. GM has fooled us too many times into thinking they were going to produce a car that could compete on the world level, no excuses.

ext wheelbase trailblazers and envoys

this is the truth. they only favor cars that inherently drive better. they are car enthusiasts first and foremost, and they are critics as well first, it is thier job to be critical of all cars. american cars don't meet the bar, haven't for a long time, and the bar has only gotten higher and higher. you don't want to beleive it, then you are living in a dream world. MT was not biased for picking the civic, it's a solid choice. I don't really understand why all the commotion is over them choosing this car. in 2002 they picked the thunderbird, and it sure wasn't the best car out there, but they picked it because they thought it was signiifcant.

GM needs to stop cancelling and shifting. Now I am losing some confidence. their ability to build world-class automobiles is becoming more proven, but the gotta haves have to come soon. I hope they are not cancelling all the good stuff.

happy birthday

or a GMT900, if hauling is a primary necessity.

oh man, that interior's design and materials look like much better than the STS even. Steadfast improval is the name of the game at Toyota, the interiors in there cars from generation to generation represent marked improvements, think back to Lexus of 2002, and this interior would be better than those. Do you get the same feeling when you think of Malibu and Cadillac? Talk about giving you a luxurious feeling. The wood and center stack and steering wheel, and the nice wood on the rear doors, reminiscent of the M45, all superlative touches, that go to show why Toyota is the middle-class man's upscale car. Toyota will continue to dominate with this wonderful car. The specs are amazing. By the way, don't pass that memo to Toyota about the wheels, the design is one of the few things keeping this automobile from being truly desirable in my eyes..... Let's see if they also figured out how to get the wallow out of the mushy suspension. Since the current gen Camry has better fit and finish than a CTS, I am assuming that this not only represents a significant jump over the current one, but also over most cars. Toyota bringing the big guns to the game.

I'm available if you need some more interviewees..

I don't want to beat a dead horse here, but would it be too much to see the details from the concept car make it to production? The silver accents in the lower fascia, and in the grille bits, the body color mirrors, the beautiful wheels, and different projector lenses for the headlights? This is too beautiful, and would seriously help the G6, imo. I think the car needs to get wider too, and the wheelbase should be a bit shorter overall than it is now. Finally, the rear deck is designed perfectly on the concept, let's work on translating that to production.

Why does this look strangely based off of the H2? Well, whatever, it looks hideous.

[quote name='razoredge' date='Dec 2 2005, 03:43 PM'] First Im not standing up for the guy, but I will say when you guys get tag teaming someone rather than give a listen and open the mind and see the other side, do you not expect them to get irate ?.....yaright !...thats the whole point of it in the first place, isnt it ? Do a little PM chitty chatty then go for the throat because this is someone that does not see our side but rather their own. I think I know a little about this.......do I not ? This is ridiculous. There is no tag teaming going on, just because we happen to come from a similar viewpoint with regards to buickman and his points. I could care less if Mr. Dollinger shares his points here. He will only get ripped apart further, because he refuses to acknowledge the essence of GM's problems. You want to hear a little of what buickman has to say, just do a search of his posts here. It's basically what he's been saying for over a year now, here and at CZ28, oh and do a search on that site too. Now what is this ? Im thinkin the use of that regurgitating word is meant to be some kind of insult or reference to accute retardation, at least thats how I have come to interpret it and its use here. Just to shed some simple basic knowledge on the subject of someone repeating their stance.......here we go.....ready?......its because thats what they believe in, thats what they are faced with, thats the world that they live in. Rather than deny credit to someones existance, experiance, and evaluation of that givin situation why dont you listen to it, obsorb it and realize that the friggin world is not flat ? Okay, I guess I wasn't clear enough. Buickman doesn't really listen to what others have to say; he isn't ready to acknowledge a different viewpoint then his. Most people here are very quick to make a snap judgement on the current GM administration, when they have no idea what goes on behind the scenes. It's getting more than a little frustrating to see all these people with limited knowledge pretend to know all that goes on behind the scenes and pretend Wagoner hasn't done anything of good, when voices who do know the truth are standing behind his administration. This is what Buickman exemplifies, this and his constant repetitive calls for Wagoner's ousting, that if you look around, most people here ignore anyways. now, I have been around here enough to know that you know GM's problem is not simple or accredited to a "real" problem. Though myself I would say its mostly because we have allowed foreign competition to purchase property within our country thereby making it alright for the American public to by foreign because its now somehow American :unsure: I still say bullshit to this one. I have asked a few times as to what ricemobile built in the mid-late 80's was a better car than my 1986 Buick LeSabre Limited ? Not a single answer but somehow Im sure some friggin Honda or Toyota or Nissan had the ass tray mounted just perfect so as to prove my LeSabre was justifiably junk. Have you looked around? GM has exactly one model that is class-leading, the C6 Corvette. They have relied on arrogance, a strong dealer body, and hefty marketing accounts to sell cars that weren't up to the bar of the competition. I'm not talking about your Buick razor, lose some ego, recognize this world doens't revolve around the one car you purchased from GM. No, I am referring to scores and heaps of crap from General Motors. Want me to host a poll on this FAN SITE about how many years GM has been making crap? Is that what you want? I will not deny that the lowly Chevy models and their divisional counterparts should have been better and that they were the cars that competed directly with the compact that imports were at that time. BUT! Still everyone pulls them out of their hat to sum up the overview of all GM products. If only ! All the kings horses and all the kings men ! I have expelled much energy and effort trying to show GM where they aren't bulding what the customer wants. They have listened, and are responding, with real good cars, that drive the way we want them to, sound the way we want them to, look like we would love for them to look. Witness the Solstice, Sky, Aura, and a host of other upcoming GM products, that you won't hear me bitching about, razor. Finally, the consumer has been listened to and paid attention to, and GM is no longer concerned with cutting corners, instead they are concerned with pleasing the consumer, in order to stay a viable business, which I DO CARE ABOUT. Praise God! [post="51807"][/post] [/quote] [post="51921"][/post] [/quote]