turbo200

And, No, that post came straight from my mind. Complacency will kill you.

Do you think trying to get under my skin is going to work? Keep making this more personal, I will continue to treat you as fairly as I have. You started earlier by listing "In the '80's, I loved...." Hence my favorite cars of the day comment. for what it's worth I have never bought a brand new imported car. I have however encouraged my sister to consider and later purchase an Envoy, my brother to consider a Trailblazer, my dad to consider and purchase a Silverado, my sister to consider a Grand Am, my friend to purchase a used Riviera. I am a diehard, but I know right from wrong, quite clearly. I'm asking you to be open minded and actually test what you refuse to objectively critique. Instead you are stubborn, close-minded, and ill-informed. I merely ask you to provide support for your opinion. See an opinion is a funny issue, everyone has one, and you know what they say about that. But if you provide support and evidence for your opinion, your opinion tends to gather more weight. All you are giving me is your opinion of how you think the world works. Anybody can do a list like you just did, but there's no reasons why any of those cars even were class-leading in your own opinion. You just drew up a list. Big whoop Once again, journalists are expected to be as objective as possible. That means show as little bias as possible. If they are found to be showing a strong bias, you can bet they will be fired and never work again. Journalism is one of my majors, and this is the first rule of journalists. Go out and drive these cars. Get educated. Stop the car ignorance. Then come back here with real weight to your opinions instead of just more babbling to make me cringe, and try to think of another polite way to explain this to you. All right I will accept what you asked of me. Here are some cars with technology not just ahead of thier time, but ahead of what GM had for at least a decade: late '80's to '94 Maxima---more structural rigidity than GM had in 2000 in any cars. A better tech engine than GM has in the Malibu today, smoother power delivery, power across the entire the rev range, up to 7000 rpms, as fuel efficient as today's 3900 engine, quality interior that sounded and looked nice, incredible space efficiency thanks to the "boring, square" Japanese lines, STRUCTURAL RIGIDITY that GM dreamed of having with the 1996 "world-class" Aurora for 30k, ten years before it!!!! early '90's Civic--as space efficient as today's Cobalt, powerful, reliable, fuel efficient, structural rigidity that made Cavalier feel like an ice machine, quality interior that showed Cavalier for the car it was: stuck in the '70's WTH was GM thinking? early '90's Corolla--bulletproof, accurate steering, dead reliable, incredibly rigidity and engine flexibility, small engine but very sprightly, incredible comfortable seats that are STILL NOT replicated in Cobalt of today, damn flat seats of the Cobalt mid '90's Camry---space efficiency Lumina dreamt of, structural rigidity it took GM 20 years to engineer out of the W-body, solidly built and enduring interior late '80's early '90's Nissan 240sx, Honda Prelude, Mazda Rx-7 GM has still to match these cars' flexibile engines, incredibly tight handling, steering and overall driver's environment [go out and test one of these and try telling me they weren't built perfectly for drop-shifting and heal-and-toe shifting], and great quality interiors.

No, I don't think they'd debut a concept version of the Lambda, with it being so close to production. None of the insiders have mentioned it debuting as a concept. Also, the concept Enclave was effectively the Centieme. The best reasoning is that that would just be lame. A Chevy Lambda minivan too would also be lame, I hope it's something exciting, that we will be very surprised by it. I know Josh keeps talking about surprises at the shows this year.

Ya I don't know, but I think both would need reinforcements in the bumpers that might kill the design a little. I truly hope this is the route GM takes, all the Euro cars are very sweet.

yes, I believe Enclave will finally be the no compromise, no excuse, world-class, right from the start vehicle we have been hoping for for so damn long. I see it conquering a lot of market share here in Los Angeles. People in LA aren't as brand conscious as much as they are style conscious, if something comes with the newest hottest style they will give it a shot, as long as it performs everything they ask of it. Ain't it grand that Buick will have that distinction of having such a fine machine.

except for it being too expensive and based on Epsilon, which is a more expensive platform to produce than Astra's, I wouldn't have a problem with it.

this kind of complacent attitude is what got GM to the place we are today,. the media kept telling them their products were not fitting the bill, but years of profit, arrogance, and sales dominance suggested otherwise. Now look where we are, a sales freefall that seemingly can't be stopped, and the worse perception problem GM has ever been faced with. They are so far away from being leaders, they don't even matter to most people anymore. We are not arguing that all of thier products need to be class-leading [though] this would be ideal. But why is it Honda can produce cars that always have critical acclaim, always meet thier sales targets without rebates, and always get released with great buzz and long waiting lists? Why is that? Why can't GM do that, except with the Z06 and Solstice, Simple, cause they make great cars.

but you made me laugh :lol: :lol: so I retract everything I said..... okay maybe not

razor, this is not list our favorite cars day. In the last 15 years, list more than 5 cars [out of the 90 and more models per year they built] from GM that were class-leading. Thsi time back your arguments with factual support, instead of non-sensical babbling. Cite a reference, quote an article, give me weight to your argument. You yourself have stated many times that you would never drive or try an imported car. Why should I care to respond to such a close-minded, forgive me, fool. You are becoming too much of a "wall" to me to even bother responding to, back your argument with fact, and then I will listen.

I agree the idea of a Buick minivan is terrible, and doesn't fit thier image at all. Enclave will bring in five hundred thousand more prospective buyers than Terraza or Rendevous anyways. I agree with Northie, Saturn is the brand with the best chance of stealing consumers from Honda and toyota, so they should have a minivan. I just don't see the necessity for GMC and Buick or Pontiac to have a minivan, when (1) it doesn't reflect thier core images and (2) two crossover/minivan vehicles are enough for that lineup. Saturn and Chevy should be the only divisions to have it.

This just reminded me, Cadillac hasn't had a concept in a long time. Sixteen was two years ago. Whatever happened to the large convertible they were going to show, was it last year? I'm not saying it will be a Cadillac concept, personally I'd love to see cheaper products be a focus for the show, since mainstream GMs are suffering the most.

That doesn't sound right. When does the Vue turn into the Antara by the way? Are we sure it won't be debuting already? For sure, the Lambdas will be debuting at NAIAS, and so will the Aura. What could the other concept be? Start the speculation....

I would be okay with waiting for two years, but the lost volume would cancel some of the gain from Outlook and Aura. If Astra were to come over it could hold the tent for five or six years even. The current Astra is very competitive, even against the new Euro Focus. I agree that the best thing about the Ion replacement is the exterior. The interior is very nice, but your HHR point is right on.

where would that leave Saturn in the compact sedan arena? without a compact for four years, since the Ion will go out of production next year? I still hope GM can figure out how to build the Astra cheaply somewhere they have extra capacity and just send it over as is. It's beautiful. And we could really use a hot hatch over here, for ONE of the brands at least.

sounds good man, whatever you guys decide I'm up for

The simplest and most effective marketing is a successful product that rolls by. It becomes a million times more effective when the design is gotta have, when it moves your heart to NEED it. The Solstice is the best marketing Pontiac has had in all the years I've been alive, except perhaps the impact of the Firebird in '93, though that was short-lived as the design was becoming accepted as less and less modern. Solstice is driving buyers in that Pontiac couldn't ever achieve with the current products. Solstice will get people into Pontiac showrooms for years, and it will help to get people looking at Pontiacs again.

[quote name='enzl' date='Dec 15 2005, 01:29 PM'] [I] You're talking about the entire Corporation's product line unilaterally; what other single company has all class-leading products? Oh, that's right; NONE. Let's see you defend 20 years of any singular auto manufacturer as unilaterally class leading...you see, you can't. And you know even as you gloss over every single model, there are a number that are at the top of their segment during this period. '92 STS is one great example. "you can't"... "A fact"... "everyone"... " the obvious"... It's exactly this type of generalization and fictionalizing that gives modern 'journalists' a bad name and garners them so much scorn. This is exactly how charges of 'biased' are earned & justified. [post="59107"][/post] [/quote] You've made my point for me: I'll give you one model year of the STS and the GMT-800's....possible a 'vette or two as well in the 90's. But, that's it! As a proportion of their total product, that has to be one of the lowest percentages of any co., perhaps barring Yugos and Fiats of the time period in question. I haven't glossed over anything, only pointed out what apparently is obvious to 'most' people. (Do the quotes around 'most' make it a more valid argument?) Semantics aside, you know I'm accurate. As I must repeat, I derive no joy from these observations (I know that you don't like me to term them 'facts'). This is a storm years in the making, not some cockaroach Wagoner found in his cereal this morning. BTW-I object to the term 'fictionalizing' since that implies there's no basis in fact for these biased-journalist's findings - which means you're defending your point of view using the same 'faulty' logic you're accusing me of! If you really believe that the points made in sub-par reviews don't exist or have no real basis, then I can't help you...although I have a bridge in Brooklyn I can sell ya real cheap! [post="59128"][/post] [/quote] this is as concise and as accurate as anyone has managed to be on this website with regards to this issue. the simple bottom line fact is GM has not had more than 5 class-leading products in the last 16 years. This HAS been an extreme disservice to employees, fans, and customers, and they are now taking the brunt of the pain ir retribution for years of subpar products.

You're talking about the entire Corporation's product line unilaterally; what other single company has all class-leading products? Oh, that's right; NONE. Let's see you defend 20 years of any singular auto manufacturer as unilaterally class leading...you see, you can't. And you know even as you gloss over every single model, there are a number that are at the top of their segment during this period. '92 STS is one great example. "you can't"... "A fact"... "everyone"... " the obvious"... It's exactly this type of generalization and fictionalizing that gives modern 'journalists' a bad name and garners them so much scorn. This is exactly how charges of 'biased' are earned & justified. [post="59107"][/post] if there is a number of models, then list them. IF the STS is the only one you can think of, and defend with facts, then you are simply stating a ludicrous argument.

hehe, thanks FOG

Small 2-seater: vette, Solstice, audi tt, boxter, Z4 Coupe: M3, 3-series coupe, mustang gt, g35, cobalt ss sc, RX-7 Sedan: CTSV, 3-series, 5-series, A8, A6, mazda6, legacy gt, passat Wagon/Hatchback: magnum SUV: SRX, New Escalade, Land Rover Range Rover, X5, Cayenne ....oh wait, was this supposed to be realistic? :AH-HA_wink:

I don't know where people are getting the idea that I'd like to copy and paste these interiors into GM's cars. This thread is for ideas, my idea was to show the kind of quality, colors, and materials that GM should be using. Go back and reread my posts, nowhere did I suggest GM should straight copy every interior from others. Most importantly, I wanted these interiors to show an element of design, creativity, that is lacking from all of GM's interiors. Can we agree on that? When I said I didn't think any of the older interiors couldn't be updated, aside fromm the choices I listed, I meant I don't see very many design elements that can be used in future cars, the way the world of interior design is today. If you don't like today's interior design, then go make a thread for past interior design. This is to discuss where GM is going in the future, and fortunately, they're just not going to revert to those interiors shown. They can certainly incorporate elements and cues from those interiors, and I'm not at all against that. Z28luver said the Corvette interior was the quintissential Vette interior, after seeing it, I totally agree, and I don't think it could get any better than that. So if they did something that incorpoated that interior's themes, that would be great. Go back to my original post, the idea was to introduce interior themes we believed could go into future cars. When Pontiac's exterior designs reach a higher quality level, meaning there a little less derivative then they are now, and a lot more aggressive, the total theme of that interior would be perfect. It fits with Pontiac's initerior design history, but puts them on a whole different plane quality-wise. The kind of quality that changes minds. ah....but I digress....

Thank you for the incredible read, guionM. All your points always make sense to me, and are delivered in an explanatory, respectful fashion we can all dig with. I'm especially passionate by this point, it matters much to me what product is being sold, and what the needs are of the people and if they're being satisfied. All in all, a sound judgement call...

it defiitely was at one point chevy and saturn

From a modern stylistic standpoint, only 1 and 5 seem like they can be updated, imho. There are lots of cues and ideas that can be used from these interiors, I especially like the embossed Chevy bowties on the chrome accent, that and other ideas look fantastic. I think these and bodacious touches, like the bus-sized steering wheel, are fun to look at, but their characatures to me, their cartoon-like, not easily driveable. And that's the reason things have progressed the way they have, because we have figured out this is the right way for a driving environment to be. That's progress.

When publications acknowledge the improvements in current GM products, it becomes clear that there is even-handedness. Impala reviews have been stellar, for it being a modest reengineering, this car has completely done a 180 in the view of the press. Improvements to the feel, the experience, will yield those results. I don't share your view that publications are becoming like the "wrestling" genre; as Hudson stated, these mags have to be entertaining to read. That's what makes them enjoyable. I challenge you to drive a Honda Accord against any GM midsize car, the Impala is the best of the bunch, but I'd encourage the Lacrosse or G6, and then come back with an even-handed review. Drive them back to back.