turbo200

Thanks for the post. They've sold 12 mil of 95.6 mil shares. They still have the option of selling more, and they wanted to recoup some of thier losses in the form of tax. Is the 12 mil a sign of desperation? Will there be more to come? Obviously, Kerkorian's share was helping to boost the overall value of GM shares, but in what other way was he supporting the shareholders, since you said he will no longer be able to support them?

Yes, I agree completely. Looking at it from the "makes Saturn more viable" perspective, it increases Saturn's market position, or any brand for that matter, to have valuable products that have desirability. Over the long run, good product like the Astra three-door, the Meriva, and Zafira, and Vectra GTS will only increase, tenfolds, the image of Saturn. I am glad they are finally seeing the value in brand and good product. I only hope they follow this plan of implementing Opels as Saturns, without any change, ASAP.

Do we even feel Democrats will really come back into power? I don't mean to turn this into a political thread, just a simple question with a simple answer. Nothing against either side, it's not about sides, I just want to know if, in general, people feel they might come back into power, and what the reasons are for it. Have Bush's policies really affected that many people? I just don't see how his policies really would taint the Republican party in general. Not to say they haven't, I don't really know.....so can someone educate me?

White Castle is here! Go to the midwest, they're all over [well, not as densely as a BK or McD's] in Chicago. I agree, it is addictive, but it's really an ultimate snack food. And that's good, sometimes.

Ohh :D sorry, mimbo moment. I will try to post it elsewhere.

The Solstice cost less than a month of Pontiac advertising. It's a rolling billboard, that I believe, cost around a total of $250 mil to design to and engineer. Don't quote me on that, but I do know it really wasn't that expensive to make, though the unfortunate thing for now is that more RWD cars can't come off of it. As for Pontiac being RWD. I'm sure you see many 300's around New England? And Mercedes Benzes, Lexus, BMW, Cadillac. Well, all of those are RWD. And all of those are expensive. I would like to see more options in the RWD category for more affordable pricing. Can we agree to disagree on the snow issue? And that market Pontiac attracts in your market is exactly why Pontiac has gone wrong and needs extreme change in order to survive, and you've got it pegged perfectly. Look for Gran Prix/Boneville replacement to go RWD on this platform later on in the decade. There should be a SWB and LWB versions of Camaro platform, SWB is what I would want for G6 if it were to happen. Obviously, the LWB version is what is being planned for a Chevy large sedan and for a Pontiac large sedan [though none of this is confirmed, it is good speculation].

Do i have to :P It's so hard to choose, I love all those cars

ah-ha, I'll agree it's smaller looking in person, but it's a bulky SUV regardless. I can respect everything you said about the last Escalade, it was pretty damn crappy. I beleive the most appealing factor was the front fascia. the headlight and grille design were shockingly good when I first saw it. To this day, I still think it's one of the better looking SUVs out there, just because of that front fascia. I also happen to like the taillights and thier design and think that is pretty Caddy-specific. Judging from the quality of it, the Escalade should have no problem selling, and it is definitely a brand now that demands a lot of respect, and has automatic sales cashed in. But it's a lot more effeminite looking, you've got to admit that. The headlight design and the overall front end, in profile especially, is softer looking. That was the main feature that made the Escalade so imposing looking. The new one looks high tech, has a touch of elegance, but there also seems to be no ruggedness to the design, and all of those imposing features are gone as well. I was never trained to like the Escalade. I saw the front end, I remember in the first Edmunds photos, that gray color, and thought it was fantastic. I was enamored, I thought immediately it was the best design out there. A couple more pictures from Chicago made it look worse, and then the official pictures came out and it was good. Sure it was ungainly, massive, and disgusting, but that front end held a hell of a lot of appeal to it. Elegance, class, machismo, in your face, get out of my way, excellence, freshness, it had it all. Can you tell I'm a little underwhelmed with the new front? ;)

The new Aveo is a compelling little car. The new interior is dramatically improved, and I beleive, more than anyone can ask for in this class. It even has a better design and overall better materials than the Cobalt. GM, can we fast track the refreshed interior on that one? It's ecterior design is now fresh again, and the interior design gives nothing to the smartly designed and unique Yaris. The only issue I have is with the feul mpg numbers.

exactly Caddy Xlr-V, aside from the Aura there will be at least 4 other cars on Epsilon: Lacrosse, Malibu, 9-3 and 9-5. All of these will be excellent choices, the Malibu will probably be the best looking mid-sze sedan this country has seen in decades. Aura will be everything the G6 is not. Pontiac has the opportunity to attack a market segment you can bet the imports will someday soon. Pontiac also has the opportunity to save the GTO, make it RWD, and make the business case for the Camaro even more compelling. Give us our RWD CHOICE, and they will come.

you guys are disturbing me..... yet it's sadistically enjoyable

bigger GMX386 Malibu to take it's place? So the current Malibu will be Classic for fleet only, that is a great decision, the Malibu is pretty solid transportation, but it lacks flair to stand out amongst tough competition. It won't have to as a rental. Will Cobalt also grow in size? Impala RWD here we come!

This price class exploded almost overnight. The rear seat looks more commodious and larger than the Cobalt's. The interior will have better quality than a Cobalt, hell the current four year old Corolla has better quality than a Cobalt inside. After reading this review, and noting that it's pretty large inside for such a small car, this car will sell very well. Much much better interior than the Aveo.

come on guys, 72 views and only 9 votes :( More votes please...

I feel the same way. Definitely one of the best movies I've ever seen, and that is something I never say. I have never felt a movie was more worth the $10 I paid for it ever. I was entertained profoundly.

I'm still getting over this movie.

Per thegriffon's request, I am posting a Turbo Edition revised version of the "Saving the GTO" thread. :) Please vote again in this one, please voice your opinion on this issue as it is a clarified poll, and, well, two polls are better than one to get GM's attention with. :P Are you a Pontiac fanatic at heart? Do you lust over the '69 Firebird like i do. That dramatic nose, the raising strong shoulders, all accuentated by a strong yet shapely rump. Ah, beautiful car. Pontiac really could use a revival. A return to its performance roots and design roots are the necessary steps to give this brand a reason to exist, and a reason for people to lust after it. The "not enough" G6 just isn't this product, the GXP tries, but is FWD and is based on the GP, Torrent is a piss-poor excuse for a poor man's BMW, and GTO is anonymous, not exactly what I am seeking out of my Pontiac. Have you dreamed of owning a modern RWD sedan or convertible from Pontiac? How about it starting right around low 20's and not going much higher than 30k for a sweet engined, lightweight convertible even. Yes the current GTO is all these things, but it's also hanging on the balance. GTO. About to die. What to do? Camaro creates some interesting possiblities. It's business case is all but settled. Go read any forum, import, domestic, Ford, Chevy, universal, the BUZZ is Camaro. GM has a lot of buyers lined up on the forums. Just imagine. How the public will react. A Chevy sedan is coming later to strenthen the business case, but let's not sway off topic. The story here is the new G6 has been delayed. Plans for it to be introduced on Epsilon have been canceled, since EP II will be out by then. GTO hangs on the balance. Pontiac and Lutz are struggling to make a business case for it. GTO needs to be piggybacked on another car's platform that already has the volume covered in order to support the limited volume of the GTO. Enter Camaro. What poetic justice. Camaro RWD platform breathes new life into a new division. Keep in mind Chrysler is now selling LX cars at a total annualized rate of 270k units. That is a higher price, with not good interior quality or incredible style depending on your taste, and they're Chryslers. Depending upon how you look at that last one, Pontiac is not better off. GM, with its abundance of brands, is in the unique position of going after niche segments that no one is at yet. Let's discuss for a moment the Epsilon cars that will be available at that time: Aura, Malibu, Buick Epsilon, 9-3, and 9-5. Am I forgetting any? There will be plenty of FWD choices for those who can't handle the snow with modern tech and RWD. Let me have my RWD. Let GM offer choice. Let there be something DIFFERENT. And then maybe GM will begin to change minds, and really change Pontiac into a viable brand with some real cachet. Let's be honest: Pontiac is as rental as Chevy, and with a history of offensive styling. That's a pretty bad combination. Aside from the GTO and Solstice, there's just not much there. Please, let's change GM for the better. Ever dream of that mysterious, dark, and cool Firebird in black? Want to own a modern equivalent of it? What if the new G6 were called Catalina or Tempest and had modern interpretations of the styling cues on that famous Firebird. What an awesome car that would be. What about a RWD Pontiac with handling equivalent to the last BMW 3-series, for around 24k, with a great engine, and with nice features, and of course classic Pontiac aggressive styling. What a novel idea, something cool. The following are some quotes from thegriffon, valuable information, I think. Please feel free to chime in, whether you disagree with my obviously slanted opinion, whether you want to repeat verbatim what you posted in the other thread, let's get the votes and this thread going! Chrysler sells 8k 300s a month!

You guys are gonna love this one. The most intense, terrifying, visually spectacular, thrilling, amusement ride of a movie. Peter Jackson is the new Steven Spielberg. This is the movie War of the Worlds should have been. Most. Incredible. Film-going. Experience. Ever. Most. Ever. Is that enough hype? Good, cause you still won't believe how good it is.

Wow, it only took us [checks his watch] hmmm.....two months to get rid of him? How long did he last at CZ28? Clearly, we're the better .........somebody help me here I don't know quite what we would be called. :lol: Boy, tired out Buickman, that's a pretty big achievement. I didn't think it would happen, and not this way either. Basically throwing the towel in, wow I guess the sales pitch is fallible. :rolleyes: :)

Buick Epsilon. maybe

Wow, this is your most reasonable post I have ever read. Though I don't fully understand your second line, and I think it's not what I am thinking. Can you rephrase it? I am glad you mentioned the Buick. See, Chevy is the GM brand. They are the most obvious representation, the most prominent, and the most important. It all boils down to Chevy. Chevy and Toyota compete in a similar price range, and are both marketed as mass market brands for every person to enjoy. They should be able to offer Chevys that not only match Toyota's for thier overall goodness and experience, but exceed them, in desirability, in engineering, in quality, in design.... The Buick I'm sure was a very good car. And your fondness of it only strengthened as it produced many years of reliable service. It is true Buick's of that time were a cut above. There was still engineering and an overall sophistication that was lacking compared to Japanese rivals. The Avalon is a good example of this. For many years it has been called a "better Buick than Buick builds". It's not just a saying, but an honest opinion from people out there who most likely wouldn't like to see one of the greatest American companies out there keel over. There were many of us who saw where GM is now coming for a long time. Years and years of dwindling market share, the Japanese eating up sales, led to one conclusion, the public was gradually waking up to the reality that better cars were being built, and they were coming from overseas. As the trend progressed it was clear to anyone who did some serious analysis GM was not going to stop the bleeding any time soon. And not with cars that didn't appeal to those people that were switching over. Here's an interesting thing to ponder: how many people have you talked to in your life that have said they've sworn off Japanese cars? Now, how many people have you spoken to that have said it about American cars? Too many. That's the answer. Too many people have promised never to buy American again, for whatever reason. And to far too many other people, buying American is the farthest thing from what they could ever think of. That's scary until you realize, there REALLY is nothing American that appeals to them. So, all that American automakers have to do is crack the code and figure out how to build somehting that appeals on all fronts. Cars like the Fusion, CTS, STS, Lincoln LS have all come the closest to cracking that code. The Mustang is a recent car I can think of that completely cracked that code. F-150 did it too. These are quality pieces that feel every bit as quality as they should be. Sure there are improvements that can be made to both, particularly on the inside and in the engine compartment, but in the most important ways, they both shine quite fervently. The F-150 regularly increases its sales. And the Mustang is single-handedly reviving a dormant Ford. Fusion could prove to be thier next hit that cracks that code. See a car doesn't have to be perfect to crack that code, but it has to excel in enough ways to really shine through. And it's all relative and according to each cars' price level. The Corvette interior is utterly inexcusable for a car of such incredible pedigree and that reaches 70k in top loaded form. Charge an extra 1k for it, build it with some incredible style inside, instead of the current GMCSD syndrome it faces, and you will have a car that everyone, every single person crows about. that's my rant.....

School is to the real world as a petting zoo is to the jungle. Go read clarkson (when he's being 'serious') for a clearcut example of how a openly biased & gleefully stereotypical 'journalist' is not only NOT fired but can increase his exposure (Top Gear on TV). Magazines do not care about objectivity, only sales. Want proof? Let’s look at the frequency of -say- BMW and mercedes road tests and objectivity. Would you agree that regular repeated exposure to the same makes/models would breed familiarity and therefore favoritism (not to mention the influence of free press junkets to bavaria and editorial pressure to sell more magazines)? After all, that is human nature... but just because it's natural doesn't make it objective. And when your job requires objectivity and your experience is lopsided, you cannot be objective. That is also human nature… and precisely the definition of a bias (”An inclination of temperament or outlook, esp prejudice. See predilection: a prepossession in favor of something, preference.”). Cadillac, bmw & mercedes sell in comparative numbers in the same segment of the U.S. market (I tried but could not locate same-year annual sales numbers for all 3). Let’s see if frequency of magazine coverage has any relation to the frequency of consumer purchase, shall we? 2002 Car & Driver ~ BMW & Mercedes coverage: 01/02 : MB C32 test, BMW 745 preview, MB SL500 preview, BMW M3 short take. 02/02 : BMW 330i test, MB ML500 short take. 03/02 : MB SL55 preview. 04/02 : MB SL500 test, MB CLK430 test, BMW X5 4.4 long term 05/02 : MB E-class preview, BMW X5 4.6 short take. 06/02 : BMW 745 test. 07/02 : BMW 330 test, MB CLK preview, BMW M3 short take 10/02 : MB C320 test, BMW 330 test, MB CLK500 test. 11/02 : MB SL55 test, BMW M5test, MB E500 test 12/02 : MB V-12 turbo preview, MB E55 preview What possible earthly purpose is there to test the bmw 330 3 times within 1 year? How much different is a BMW X5 4.4 and an X5 4.6 that back-to-back features are necessary, or even remotely interesting? Some may tell us that this is in the name of entertainment. Frankly, I’m bored out of my gourd and so are an increasing number of other readers- hence the increasing level of journalistic criticism. 2002 Car & Driver ~ Cadillac coverage: 02/02 : CTS test, Cien concept 07/02 : XLR preview Total Features: BMW : 10 MB : 14 Cadillac : 2 (plus 1 concept car) I need to know- how is this not favoritism? [post="59503"][/post] Do you beleive magazines won't cater to what the broad spectrum of thier readers want to read about? Do you beleive magazine editors and writers don't have a right to be disgusted by being treated to years, decades of inferior products? Ask someone on this board who samples every car from every manufacturer for a LIVING. They are here and they are reading, simply ask for thier unbiased opinion. Remember they live and breath in every single car this world has to offer. They have tested more cars than you or I have, that's for sure.

it's proven with a drive go out and find low mileage [around 100k], clean examples of both. I've driven my sister's Aurora, beautiful car, with 30k miles on it. Car was great to look at, but it had horrible proportions that robbed all of the space. My brother's Passat is over a foot shorter and has better, and more comfortable interior dimmensions. The Aurora impressed people when the rode in it. But the driver felt a different story. Disconnected steering, loose and vague throttle pedal, some of the worst most dramatic brakes I've ever sampled, and a soggy but competent suspension. Perhaps soggy isn't the right word, so don't get your panties tangled up. It was solid, but absorbed bumps, no it didn't absorb, more like lightly reminded you they were there. No absorbing, try a new Passat or that Nissan to know what absorbing is. That's what structural rigidity will give you, a solid, planted feel, where you tend to hear the bumps but independently sway over them. Sample a CTS or STS to know how it's done in a dramatically good way. That Aurora just did not compare---not in overall dynamics, not in steering feel, and not in structural rigidity that caused that planted, solid feel but thunked away each bump. I hope you can understand what I mean. It didn't compare to that Nissan I drove. Go out and drive them, and then you'll see the difference.

! Thanks for the info. Unfortunate, but I'll take it.