turbo200

sorry to say, but you live in a dream world.

Califonia is one of the most normal markets I've been too. There are the elite in Los Angeles who will only purchase luxury cars [notice this includes Cadillac too], and there is the middle class who will purchase middle class vehicles and will make purchases based on thier own intellect. All things equal, all cars equal, any race of people will purchase the best car out there for the best value. The problem is, for too many, GM's cars aren't equal. But this is a moot point. In the early 2000's GM's trucks were very competitive and thier cars were not. The investments in the mid-90's went to trucks. Around this time, trucks became the best selling vehicles for GM in California. It's now the mid-2000's and the trucks are still rather competitve and now Cadillac has become competitive----in today's Californian market the biggest representation comes from trucks and Cadillac. Sounds reasonable to me---the best cars get the most buyers. Only in the Midwest do people flock to GM for no purpose other than ties and loyalty. Others really don't care. Yes, there are those that have the perception problem who won't come near a GM vehicle because of thier perception that GM will always be inferior, for whatever reason they may have acquired this perception. But those people exist all over the nation. There are certainly foreigners that won't buy something other than a specific brand, but this is not a phenomonon particular to foreigners and not to CA either. EDIT: had to make changes after going re-reading some earlier comments.

I'm pretty sure when he says it would be economically unsound to produce this type of car, he is talking about the economics and resources it takes at GM to produce this type of car, that in the end will benefit few and not really make the positive effect to the environment everyone and Toyota is crowing about. In his mind, and from his knowledge, the effort to make hybrids steals resources from fuel-saving tech like DOD and better transmission and whatever else GM comes up with that could make a much bigger difference than the couple hundred thousand GM will make. But as knightfan stated, it's all about perception. The public cares that GM produces hybrids, if only to see that green image from them. In other words, GM knows the consumer isn't always right, but they really have to do whatever they can to make them feel like they are right or they will turn on you.

It's your head that was implanted in the wrong place. Cadillac's profits---well let's just say with only Cadillac and Chevrolet, GM would have ZERO problems. Hell, Cadillac on its own could do better than the GM corporation is doing now. You know nothing about the way the business runs if you don't understand that Cadillac makes about a billion more dollars in profit than Buick can make. Buick sells a lot more to fleets than Cadillac which cuts profits; all Buick's car except for the Lucerne sell with profit-eating incentives; Buick's sales have been on a steady decline, if you were touting Buick's sales figures of 1979 then I'd say you're right, but today Buick barely sells more than Cadillac, and at much lower prices. You made a good call on one thing: "Buick is not where they belong." I have said this line time and again, and I have felt this way for very long. Buick needs to be world class, they need to be passionate vehicles that people actually "dream" about, they need to have guts, they need to be luxurious, no more base model crap, they need to be a good doctor's car. On to the Saturn issue.....well I already started in the post above. To add more to Saturn's pot, they have an award-winning dealer customer support staff that routinely matches and beats Lexus. Lexus. You just don't get that far without being incredibly friendly and satisfying with customers. This will pay in dividends in the coming years when Saturn gets the respect they deserve within GM. In addition, GM has admitted themselves that Saturn is the best chance they have of getting import buyers---more import buyers would consider Saturn than any other GM brand because it's the one they least associate GM's dowdy, wholesale image with.

There are a lot of comments in this thread that are off----but this isn't one of them. I am a huge proponent of "build exciting and desirable products, and they will come," but Lutz was simply stating fact. Buick is in bad shape. A lot worse than many here think. Perhaps you haven't been to too many places outside the Midwest? The Midwest, in case we haven't reminded you enough [I know I'm beating the dead horse], is GM's core market. Buick actually has an old people's car image there. Other places, it's like Buick don't even exist. That's what Lutz stated, he basically said, in another quote, with Buick, the biggest problem is people automatically write it off. Like it's not even there. It's a combination of the old people's car; derivative, disspassionate styling and design; unattractive interiors; muddled direction and directive [where exactly are they supposed to be and who are they supposed to be competing with, not asked by me, I know who they should be competing with]; and just being another GM clone. Years of cars that didn't exactly meet the bar of the competition have also led GM astray. This will piss razor off, but there's more to come, so sit back, relax, and take it in.

You're right. This is one of the main things keeping the axe from swinging on Buick, it's growing presence accross the globe. But a realist would see that Buick's potential is limited, but still has lots of room to grow in markets like China and other markets like Asia. The reason I say it's limited is I don't see it reaching the mass world potential of a brand like Ford, which is popular in Europe and throughout the world. I don't see Buick becoming much of anything outside China and other, smaller Asian markets. But China is still expanding, and Buick is doing huge there. So they definitely have a growing world presence. And, razor, studies have shown that Saturn is the only GM brand import buyers will consider, beause they don't regularly associate it with GM. This and thier award-winning customer support staff, which matches and beats Lexus dealers' customer support , are the biggest reasons why you see Saturn having a product infusion. Saturn, to GM, is like a rose that never fully bloomed. They have not released enough products to see the full potential, and there haven't been any products Saturn has released, well aside from the current Ion, that have really tarnished the brand image they have. They don't have much of a brand image, but at least it's a fairly positive image in most consumers' eyes. The Vue is an example of thier potential. And thier cars will soon be amongst the best produced at GM.

that's exactly it jrock. designers have visual tricks that make a car appear shorter in length and height. lengthening a wheelbase is one trick that will help trick the eye into believing it's seeing a shorter car overall.

Just a quick addendum, I have not refreshed the page with the Camaro video on it since I got it earlier in this thread, so the page may very well be down, and I just still get the video because I have it in my cache.

I can still see the video, and have been watching it over and over again. This car is seriously beautiful-sex machine by all accounts. I am not happy with the grille design chosen for it over just a traditional blacked-our grille like on the original. Also there is a little bit too much Camaro in the lower bumper that helps to create the bumper face, but imo, too much Camaro face, a flatter bumper might have made things better for me. This Camaro face can especially be seen in the video against real lighting. From a side profile, this thing is just utterly gorgeous. I love the rear lights when they light up, I love the missing b-pillar, I love the angle the beltline kicks up to make shoulders after the doors, and most of all I am in love with the short overall length and wonderfully long wheelbase. This thing looks so sleek and compact, I wouldn't mind GM basing 10 cars off this platform just to get those proportions.

hmmm, I've had similar experiences with my Dell too....the rubber feet and the button falling off as well as a replaced wireless card, and now the Bios and battery charger are acting up. I knew getting that 5 year special warranty was a good idea.

If you haven't driven them you should try them and that should give you the insight into which one is in better condition. the 3.0 engine that was in the 300 was also readily available in Nissan Maximas, and a few Infinitis, so parts won't be an issue, although the expense to repair and labor for it is another thing. All things considered I would just go for the 300 since it's the nicer looking car and is pretty fun too.

Great philosophy to have. This way you get an equal sampling and a balanced perspective. I would add try different cities, different suburbs, different "small towns", and even different countries...

feel free to PM The OC or me, and also post here ideas. We have plans to eat near the convention center, but we haven't decided on a place yet.

This is a very sad story for both the workers and GM. [Also, CD/BP presented one of the clearer arguments for journalists and against the oft-thrown around idea here of "bias" I've seen presented so far.]

"I don't think you'd be dissatisfied either way." Both are among the best cars GM offers, and both are great looking, albeit more than a little derivative. Both engines sound phenomonal. The Lucerne sounds not as sporty as the Impala, but having seen both in person, I think I like the Lucerne better. The SS is a great looking beast however, and is available for great prices. Even with the cramped backseat, having three there shouldn't be a problem, so the expanding family is always possible.

same line and story from last year, only this time the pricing will be "aggressive". Excuse me If I'm not overly optomistic this will actually happen and pricing will actually be in line with the competition, and in many cases below, since cars like the Grand Prix, well they don't exactly measure up to be blunt. Actions speak louder than words...

I just want to know what a legal basis for a lawsuit arguing defamation of "internet personality" are. Any person in whole wide world could come on here and take that name. The name does not belong to one person. Slander on a personality, come on? That would have to be the charge, I assume. ya know, since he threatened to sue and all ;)

Do you really think before the Internet, that many people really cared to look around and do research or had the access to it? The "media" is a lot more accessible today than ever before, but people started turning away from GM decades ago. In most cases, people have turned away from GM because of bad experience. Even with all the access there is to the media today, probably less than half the car buying public have educated themselves. The half that has educated themselves, most or all of them have read the bad press. Some of them still make the decision to purchase GM. Because a lot of the bad press is deserved, and goes after the right cars, not the good cars GM produces. Cobalt had a lot of excellent reviews when it was first released. Then comparison tests showed it didn't match the competition. Impala had excellent press too. Equinox had excellent press. I can go on here, but I think you understand my point. Others will not purchase GM. Most adults take the opinions of others, digest them, and still go and form thier own opinions. So in many cases these people will still go out and test drive a GM. Those that don't usually don't do it because of a multitude of reasons: last time they were car shopping they checked GM and saw a lousy vehicle; they've glanced at GMs latest wares and refuse to take them for a test drive because of quality issues with the interior [a more solidly built and quality designed interior will give the perception of a "better" and more reliable car]. Multitude of reasons. But this is very important: most adults take others' opinions, digest them, and still go out and form thier own opinions, and use thier own experience to justify thier opinions. The media has an influence, but only so much. If a person who swore off GM ten years ago, reads the latest Tahoe reviews they may be compelled just to go in and give it another shot. Then again, they might read the latest STS reviews, and find out thier opinion was right in the first place, they have been validated, and there is no reason for them to check out GM again. This is the kind of walls GM is up against. But place the blame in the right place, GM has brought this on themselves.

I beleive the Japanese claim to fame is "change the oil in it every 3k miles and it'll run past 200k miles". That's the line I've heard from every mechanic and person who remotely knows more about cars than the average person. Japanese are legendary for being easy to own as long as the proper maintenance is performed. So, in essence, Japanese cars are perfect, and a Lexus will run perfectly beyond 200k miles. Of course, this is in general, but it is a wide known perception. Every carmakers have thier lemons, but in general, Toyotas and Hondas are know for running perfectly. This perception didn't just come out of nowhere either, check all the reliability reports you can find and you will see Japanese cars are the highest rated, and not just JD Power either. Read around forums, check the lists of problems for all makes and all models, and read objectively, meaning don't try to find a huge fault in one model Toyota has and say everything they make is crap. You will find GM has some work to do with regards to perception, and probably more work in the reliability department as well. I am not interested in any car market right now by the way, I am just being objective and arguing your proof that GM's cars are as reliable as the Japanese. That's a bold statement to make in my book; you've got to have good evidence of that. Even if new car buyers aren't interested in this data, a used car buyer will 90% of the time turn into a new car buyer at some time in thier life. Anyone else have this experience or have heard this saying about Japanese cars?

thanks for the pictures. looks sharp

Ultimately this kind of study only would help those interested in keeping thier cars for an extended period of time. But it is still a test worth taking. And it would still give credence to your argument that GM cars are in fact "as reliable" as Toyota. That's a heady statement to make, and I'm not buying with just those facts you posted regarding cars over a three year period. Now, I am agreeing with you that GM cars are very reliable, but I don't know that they've reached that Holy Grail level of durability of the Japanese. Seriously, go out and test drive a late 90's Accord or Maxima or Camry that has not been abused, it's a revelation. Satty's had one, and I know many more here have too. GM, as the world's largest automaker, should be interested in meeting all these standards I possess for cars, as well as Japanese engineers have for thier own work. If the Japs can literally perfect the vehicle and engine in so many ways, GM needs to be looking into how to get to those standards. They are making vast improvements, and the net result will be a better car for everyone and a healthier GM.

Perhaps ten years was taking it a bit too far. I will accept any test that can be verified. It's my experince that GM cars that I've driven with more than 70k miles, which has been limited experience, have not held up like Japanese cars can and do. The Japanese cars I've driven that have exceed the 100k mark are stellar in thier durablitiy and the way they've held up over the years. Every GM I've driven with equivalent mileage squeeks, rattles, shakes, feels old in general. I have yet to experience a GM car post 2000 with high mileage. I will say my sister owns a Grand Am GT, which I convinced her to buy, and it's a 2000, and it drives like brand new. It has 45k miles and she babies it like NO OTHER. Literally like no other, I mean she hates putting the fan speeds above 2, because it's "taxing". I got that gene, but it displays itself in other ways. Anyways, my point is just that. When you're talking about reliability and durability, well first of all it's an incredibly important issue, and it's the magic ace card Japanese fans still have to thier defense. A GM car has yet to prove to me it can hold up quite as well. The reliability tests that matter to me are reliability over a 5 year, 6 year, 7 year period, as well as durability and endurance tests over that same timespan. No matter what, if I pay even 13k for a brand new car, it damn well better be perfect for a 3 year period, that's a huge chunk of money in my book. And if one company can do it right, then every other company needs to meet that standard. Otherwise I will be taking my business to the company that can treat me right.

This Suburban's wheels should be standard accross the lineup, of the Suburban at least, unless an offroad package necessitated bigger tires or smaller wheels. Much like every other automaker out there that knows packaging your vehicles with lesser wheels only hurts the image of that model.

the first pic that greets you makes it look very cheesy. The only thing that was changed was the fascia, and they couldn't focus on it enough to make it look good. At the very least, a better grille and fascia, the combination of both are disastrous, imo. Still refined and elegant looking though.

How does JD Power measure extended reliability for a 2005 model ten years from now? The answer to me is not at all. That's why I don't buy into any of thier studies. They show durability over a period of 90 days, then they show reliability in the first year, and all is good, but I'd like to see reliability over ten years of ownership, or roughly 150-200k mileage. I don't think that is how JD is doing thier tests. Yes, GM's reliability has improved, but the imports have not stagnated, they have improved on thier already legendary reliability. GM will have to do better than just having reliable cars. Even Hyundai can build reliable cars, and have the confidence to back them for a long period of time.