turbo200

this essence is mostly a waste of space. too overstyled and gaudy for supercar tastes, too cartoonish to go down as anything classical. too vette like to merit any attention. the surfacing is absolutely beautiful and the grille looks way cool, but this car as a whole hurts. it's not going to get the supercar dollars from people expecting supercar style with refined details [cue: R8].

it sounds more to be like a personal camaro-bias on your part than you seeing the reason in my viewpoint. GM management and thier expectations and what they would do in the resultant situation [and thier propensity for killing Camaro programs] for such a car is a different issue; the reality of GM's cash-starved situation and Pontiac's limited product line is the reason why I would say such an idea had some soundness. normally my pretense for this kind of practice would be creative differentiation and maximizing platform for different segments. however, here we have gm cash starved, pontiac with little to no product. even in good situations, GM doesn't vary thier platform utilization, even in good times they don't create different vehicles for different segments off the same platform. especially this one is true: even in good times they don't understand the marketplace in order to create the right vehicles for the right segments of population that go after those products. hyundai's figured it out but not GM.

acadia and enclave are barely any more differentiated, there's no real difference in content or mission/purpose, they go after the same crowd of people, and are priced similarly. yet no one here seems to complain about those. in an ideal situation, GM would have been better managed and the Buick would have been even more luxurious outside and in and had better engines and driven better than the GMC.....but they didn't do that. this is much the same situation. they are esentially badge engineering jobs.....not platform sharing like an Audi A4 and a Passat. [A4 has much higher quality than the already superb Passat and it drives much sportier, the look of the passat is mainstream, while Audi design is clearly upper crust.] EDIT: let's say the G8 had a twin at Chevrolet. people would not be complaining as much about that rebadge as they do the torrent, G3, or even the execution of G6. why? because those cars have a lot of poor execution, the first two are utter crap in many regards and totally not befitting of pontiac;s supposed role. people are complaining about the poor cars pontiac gets. you don't here a lot of people yelling about solstice/sky.......

i like this rendering....a lot. the only part that is excessive and unartful are the rear taillamps, but i don't know a more direct way of connecting pontiac's history. perhaps a simple rectangle which would be less differentiated but still in line with the original firebird. the current rendering shows lamps that are too cartoonish. the front end is sober and aggressive on the same token, simply re-drawing a distinct and extreme charicature the original had that worked and was never overdone, as the firebird became in latter years. It's too bad there isn't enough money to draw on a rich history of design language pontiac has had.

omg, i have never seen that toronado before posted above, it is very slick and nicely done, very progressive and even very current. but to the post at hand, this is a case where good engineering and a good package are the basis for a good car. this is a case when a pure rebadge with differing sheetmetal that is used to create brand identity is right. this would be the right move. it's a shame that GM is adamant on no Camaro-firebird this time around because of the rebadge 'stigma' yet it's perfectly acceptable with the flimsy G3. that model is certainly worth repeating. rebading was never the problem, it's starting with a good solid base, offering a good reason for that model to exist, supplementing the brand and helping build the brand, and striving for different content so as to avoid overlapping entities and competing with one's self. for now, just differentiating the sheetmetal would be enough of a basis for me to call this solid business. it builds pontiac's brand, volume could be limited, it's very good looking, supplements Zeta's volume a tad, but most of all this is brand identity and recognition. people recognize trans am, recognize the looks, know what this stands for, and know what good thing it brings. if it could help some others into the pontiac line that otherwise wouldn't look at camaro or pontiac, then it's a solid run both ways. the future could bring more profit for more distinctive features and content.

exactly

don't remind me of those 'big' words. thanks guys

it's really disturbing that i know an area in Indiana where this is very true. EXCITEMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! sad but very accurate.

i'm never one to shy away from admitting i was a litte wrong. that picture posted in this thread is quite misleading. i had to go back and look at the sixteen again after a picture at another site i encountered gave me different impressions. while i still concur the sixteen needs some updates badly and my comparisons to the other cars in its category were not entirely unfair [it may have themes and looks that equal the S though that car is a graceful beauty in its own right, the 7 is better in themes more up to date and better looking in its own stoic highly scuplted fashion, XF has better looking features and of course more up to date themes, but these are all my opinions again]....while this is true, the sixteen definitely laid the groundwork for some of the better CTS and Converj ideas. what works just works sometimes. sixteen has reason to be iconic, but we've also moved on, and so yes the prevailing themes of the bodywork still work and look good, but other ideas like the fascias now look conceptually overdone and overjeweled and lacking in detail. the shape also works really bodaciously on a car this large and would truly make a good $120,000 statement, but for a mainstream luxury car it wouldn't work as well nor would it translate to a smaller car.

the only thing it's still got going for it is it's distinctive. high end car design is way beyond that point. the sixteen is dated. one more time, the sixteen is less than the new 7, less than the upcoming A8, less than the XF, less than the CLS/S, less than even the LS. it's detail poor completely lacking in detail and refinement, and the surfacing is tired. the only thing it has is it is brash and imposing.....no fine detailing, although the interior still has nice themes, and it is dated as well. old, bygone, however as a $200,000 car in 2004, it would have had some notoriety. by now it would have needed to be redesigned.

you are being asinine in the way you spew your ignorant bias. i am sorry i have to be rough here. you very well know the source responsible for localizing the cars sold in America was GMNA. Opel developed those platforms and GMNA changed the cars for thier purposes. it is so convenient of you to ignore all the calls from various posters here to just import the vectra when it was first released, doubtless you were a part of that perhaps i should look into it, because we all thought it was a solid looking piece, and much better than our unrefined Malibu. the people responsible for the bad things about epsilon cars are the ones that forced designers and powertrain departments to decontent and neuter the design. on the other hand one of the things epsilon was routinely praised for is a balanced chassis and refined suspension. it goes all the way to the current malibu which manages to make it to multiple awards lists over two years not just in its introductory year. do some comprehensive reading and you'll find one of thier big points of praie for the car is the balanced handling and composed ride; that must have something to do with solid engineering on the platform, originating in Germany. thier must be some glory in doing that.

that's because it is all GM's fault. the financial crisis has brought to a head all the different hurdles that GM created for itself. you're honestly living in the past. there are many different sources here and over the internet that can paint you the picture of the inner-workings of the company; I can only look at the situation from the outside and tell you for too long and in a dismal fashion there product has failed to compete. they are a pathetic and self-obstructed story at this point; it's almost time for them to be put out to pasture. their product has finally started to turn around, but more could have been done, long ago, to continue to take advantage of the good will consumers had for them. it's a shame they are such a poorly run business and this was all a bit of a sham. their are too many execs within getting paid lots of money to have contradictory opinions and not look at the marketplace and not accurately gauge what is going on with the consumer and expectations. they have been performing the job of running the business into the ground. they've completed it.

they would need to spend lots of effort and time convincing people they would make it out of Chapter 11, it would need to be gov't financed, the media would need to have a focus on the idea that the cars would be safe to buy still becuase everything would be guaranteed. it would not be easy, there's plenty of reason not to buy a car from a company that is perceived as going under. especially when the competition is strong.

surfacing typical of lutz, so watery smooth like a lexus but dull with no form whatsoever which at least lexus has. in fact that same watery surfacing is prevalent in new SRX-Vue, makes it all nice and soft and RX-ish. the shape should have been left in the '80's, though for a big time imposer-mobile out to show the world who's boss, the shape's not half bad. then you have the features that are outmoded, no one uses such little definition in thier features. tension is where it's at.

it is seriously dated. looks like an updated early 90's deville with fancier detailing up front and at the rear. very dated.

i guess i'll go on with our little spat since we're so finely getting along [i guess I've done something wrong]. so you bring up a powertrain point which is an American thing because elsewhere they're offered with a variety of powertrains. you bring up the american powertrain, the special edition performance model, and inconspicuos unverified noises as your proof pudding the whole car line is nothing special. i was always strictly talking about the euro model for future reference, as we all know one important measure of a car is its powertrain, seriously important to most, and the american model is lacking there. in europe, with its many derivations, abundant powertrain options, and low entry price the astra was considered head of its class as little as a couple of years back. paraphrased almost completely from a review a couple years back. by your measurements, there is really no one compact car in the american market that rules as head of class.

in America. the euro version has more engines, the one major failing of the American model. cupholders are not a make or break situation regardless of if you want to pretend they are or not. they are a convenience model, but with the right driving, good efficiency, diesel Astra to the average Euro consumer, they won't care. i don't think they look at beverage holders the way we do in any case. astra is a five year old product that still heads the best sellers list in Europe.

generally speaking, we are past this point. GM's daily operations are in doubt now, let alone keeping Pontiac around. they've gone to the point of cancelling one divion's planned model releases [GM will not spend the money to launch Saab's new cars] and cancelling one division altogether [saturn]. GM has gone back to the government now asking for more money, but auditors within the company are now coming up with a report to show IF the business itself is sustainable. Pontiac is GM's third biggest brand in terms of volume, but that volume is evaporating on all fronts, not strictly Pontiac. GM is looking for ways for GM to stay around, let alone Pontiac. whatever happens, if GM survives, it's safe to say this will change the corporation forever, including Pontiac. whether that means the brand closes completely or if they are revived in a much more limited capacity under a new Chevy/Cadillac GM, or other potential scenarios, we will have to wait and see.

never mentioned GMNA and respective product, reread the string of posts. as for insignia, look around and you'll find some video reviews, they rave about it. the ones we'll get here have been localized by GM DAT and GMNA plus Saab has done thier 9-5 i presume. it'll be interesting if we get the full lineup plus insignia to see how each compares. now i am not one to believe Opel to be perfect, but at least with astra and insignia they prove they know what they are doing with those respective segments. more than GMNA, which always seems to do 5 things on a car to shoot themselves in the foot.

I'll do more. Epsilon II had its development center in Germany. it was then taken and accomodated for local markets, but the core development of the architercture in Germany. Delta II core development center in Germany.

with only chev and caddy to work with the platforms and models have the chance to be a lot more consolidated and focused. which could end up being a really good thing for Cadillac. that alpha platform sounds like a really necessary item at an independent and global Cadillac.

much of the purported class leading product GM has coming has had Opel's hand in development.

oh no one is believing your nonsense. all that logic and such. but seriously, no one serious person believes the opel product under the Saturn example is a good measurement for how well Opel develops a product or can compete [in our market at least]. i see a lot more distaste/disregard/bias for Opel with some of the people less in the know here. obviously there is a perception out there regarding Opel, and obviously for a long time it has been less than favorable, and still the last gen vectra was referred to as a secretary's car. the corsa/astra/antara may be bland, but they were much better engineered than what came in the past and better designed. insignia is a huge improvement in design and quality, as will be the next astra surely. astra is already one of the best selling cars in Europe, corsa was right there with it for a time. i also know enough to see this doesn't ultimately have a bearing or give an indication of opel's financial prosperity.

image-wise, in Los Angeles at least, the Escalade definitely sums up to a flagship product. and it's great in that way, it's great that it props up Cadillac through distinctive and classy good looks. the problem Caddy needs to adress is just giving Caddy some new product on the higher end and the lower end of the CTS. On the one hand I'm beginning to see that the only way forward they've decided to take is Epsilon, and no I'm not accepting of it, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see. not before i say this. essentially GM released a truly impressive sports sedan at Pontiac with world class handling and performance, one that matches what BMW produces, appropriately maybe might even be thier swan song. the next Cadillac will be less than that. Cadillac, all the potential of the Art/Science theme and the potential for great cars that matched BMW/MB are going down the drain. great minds at GM, great minds.

this is truly a gorgeous coupe. i agree with everything they said about design, hyundai stole the shape, but improved on it. the stance, cut lines, proportions are all perfect. this is the size i wish the camaro was [though that car is good looking enough in its own right]. before this comparo i did not realize how much an inspiration the G is for the genesis. they emulated the right one. the interior is impressive, and not just for a hyundai. still i notice cutlines and assymetrical lines and vents that are poorly drawn. the perfect flow of that center stack makes up for a lot.