turbo200

the volt really can't come soon enough. i hope it's good looking and high quality with a well designed and practical interior that's not so bent on futurism. for a hybrid that would be revolutionary.

quoted for anymore of the illiterate derelicts out there :AH-HA_wink:

I'm all for it......but....ya know, what's in it for us? I mean where's the compensation for years of good advice, sound consumer feedback, self-constructed environment some of us help to create here at C&G? I'm a little tired of seeing much of what I've said be put to good use at GM, but no compensation! AT LEAST get on here and tell us you want to send us to a consumer feedback panel for the next generation of cars!!! Would that be that hard? some non-discolsure agreements, 12 plane tickets, one week paid hotel, tour of the city......you know the royal treatment. After all, give credit where credit is due...it was C&G that started the bitching and objectivity...GMI just caught on to it after us

i have not and that would also be a negative for me. i like to keep my freeway speed above 70, though not always possible here. since there's no sunroof, I've had to begin looking at other cars. I can't see myself getting anything else but something like this car, or the car in my picture. it'll be a hatch 3-door. so the last gen VW R32 is already one of my favorites, the current gen I'm not fond of the shape. the C30 is up there. i can't think of another car that fits my bill [mini is cool but maybe not butch enough]

so, let me get this straight, and thank God you're a car salesman and not involved with investment management somewhere, oh and might I mention I love that you think you're very qualified to make this statement. but let me get it straight. so, once, GM owned over 50% of the marketplace. yeah, given the circumstances, new nameplates being introduced into the market, absolutely there was going to be some shrinking of the share, but the market itself also expanded. so we go into the early '90's and we're down to 35% of the market, still a big majority! now we're down to barely 20%, less than 20% if you're looking at it from a retail perspective, and we should all be patting them on the back?!????? I know you're Canadian, but the market is very different here. We matter, and not your $C dollar. when you want to have a discussion about your canadian dollar and the canadian marketplace please feel free to do so with Canadian friends. We here are talking about our market, in which over 16 million vehicles are sold anually, of which your country only sells a small fraction of. Gosh, it's like somebody from Mexico coming in here and trying to add perspective on the Mexican car market, no one cares! It's our market that is the lucrative one that everyone is fighting to get a piece out of. as for your argument on GM's market dominance, I would not go there if I were you. there is no market dominance anywhere from GM......let's see the CTS comes close to the top of its segment, the Impala's artificially enhanced sales figures are close to the top in its segment..........Silverado is second.............let's take a look at even the '80's, much less '60's and '70's to see how drastically different that story would have been then. hmmmpp....must have something to do wiht the way the company is managed

I think traditional Impala customers, those that buy Impala because of the 'Impala name' and those that buy Impala because it's a Chevrolet large sedan, I think there are very few left of those. We could go on for hours with conjecture about where they went, but suffice to say, GM's dominance of the midsize and large sedan segment has evaporated, and with it the perception that there even is a large car segment, as GM used to own it all. I think most Impala buyers are buying it because [a] it's very cheap and can be steeply negotiated/rebated down in price to the point where it costs less than a Malibu it's still economical and reliable since it's using proven tech and GM has rightfully earned that rep and [c] it's a big car. No where in that analysis of the reasons for their purchase did I include loyal buyers drawn only to the name. I didn't include a loyalty to GM or the Impala nameplate, because as I said those buyers are dwindling; it's likely many already graduated to Cadillac or one of GM's SUVs, it's also likely some are now going for a smaller car in GM's lineup, it's also most probably many of those buyers were drawn over to the dark side, the imports. In that analysis I didn't include Impala being a top-tier competitor since it has none of the qualities to be there, except maybe fuel economy on a V6 engine. So the point I'm getting at is that none of these buyers are drawn to the Impala in its current state for any dramatic reason. It's nothing more than a reliable appliance. If you accept that as truth [there is no reason any reasonable person shouldn't given sales and what we know of transaction prices for the average Impala, along with the horrible resale value, this is for the unmotivated thinkers here, resale value shows you how much demand there is for the supply of any given product], if you accept the truth, then you must also know this is an incredibly competitive marketplace and only going to get so much moreso. How many times must I say this? The next Impala to draw buyers effectively and not just sell based on incredibly cheap prices, to create this aura of a winning GM and great Chevy cars, to get the buying public at large to notice GM, and not just those steeped in Domestic America Wonderland, to do all this, it must be different, and a winner. Therefore, replacing this Impala with a notchback like you stated would make sense to me since I'm always for out of the box thinking and I don't see a good reason to offer a relatively large NG Malibu and a somewhat larger EP II NG Impala. It's called overlap, I've seen it done many times with GM where they spent the money and the return is minimal and we're back to square one, and I've ridiculed them in the past for it, so no way am I for it now. Making it large and also offering a flexible cargo box, along with some muscular mean design that builds on Chevy's past might make for an interesting Impala. If done right. You know when I first read you mention it I immediately had a picture drawn in my head of a large, wide, squat sedan looking car from the front with some SS concept cues like the Malibu on the front, and a very Toronado like rear, with a steeply sloping rear C-pillar. I think that could be cool. If they could keep the weight down and even offer an efficient 4 cylinder along with a very noticably more efficient hybrid [unlike the current crap thier peddling] this could be a very suitable mass market car and an interesting one at that.

it's the basic essence of the interior that makes cobalt seem pitifully ill-concieved in comparison. astra's basic design is professional, the colors are smart, it looks sporty and high end, because of contrasting colors that are each deep and rich. the silver may be painted plastic but at least it's the right shade of color and contrasts incredibly well with the dark ebony, at least in the XR i sat in. then you proceed to the areas you touch everyday. the turn stalks operate with finesse and are superbly weighted. the buttons on the center stack feel firmly in place, they don't feel as though they're about to come off or are flimsy like os many GM vehicles I've found. and they don't look like design rejects, like seemingly all of GM's old climate controls/black tie radios. moving on to the armrest which seems to be better put together and made with nicer materials than trucks like Tahoe, add in the superior door panel materials and the material that covers the top of the dash which is one of the best I've found in a GM vehicle, and you know this is no normal American made GM. the seats are phenomonal, look nice, and have a high quality expensive substance. these are minute differences that ultimately added $500 to the cost of the interior, if that. yet, the bottom line is Astra feels like an aspirational car, not a car most people would consider cheap. the astra was one I went to look at because I'm going to be getting a new car this summer, but there's no sunroff on the three door?? that's a huge deal breaker for me. the three door is a great looking, edgy sports car, only one or two angles and the lower foglamps area that I don't like the details, other than that the design is great.

this may make sense, but I just don't see GM abandoning there old ways and thinking this new design, which I believe could be revolutionary if done right, will capture the buyers of the current Impala traditional design. Malibu is obviously going to get bigger with the next design, and they may find they don't need to have something bigger beyond it, like honda has with the accord, which is really imo as large as a family sedan should get, the next step up should be luxury limos like the S-class [whether Buick and Chevy wanted to have something to fit that mold for obviously cheaper pricing is yet another question]. the crossover movement, we're not even in the middle of it yet. designers are getting smarter and recognizing that it is still great design that works, especially with limitless crossover shapes. that is the amazing thing, we have yet to see where the hatchback look can fully take us, there's still plenty left to show, and as the picture below shows, we haven't seen the best here in America yet, and it can get real good. certainly with Volt, Malibu, Cobalt, Aveo, GM will have plenty more traditional shaped sedans. what will obviously matter most with this notchback shape will be obvious, positioning, quality, design. they can make another mistake like maxx and be off on all those bases, or they can get it right and really create a revolution of sorts. people are looking for utility, and those leaving crossovers and SUVs will not want to simply return to an unflexible cargo hold of a sedan. the poster toyota.vs.gm did say recently impala would be like never before.

perfectly stated. i know many people will loathe me for saying this, but just go on edmunds.com and search through the forums there. you will see the impala threads mostly inactive. it's because people who are buying impala are not necessarily always the progressives, the ones doing the research, striving to make the most informed decisions. this is where the market has been heading, and more and more those buyers have obviously turned away in droves from GM cars. now i'm not saying it's not an informed decision for some to buy the impala, whether you like it for a potent V6 at an inexpensive price, combined with a large package, and as others have stated a simply classy look. but, it's obvious the competition has not stagnated and once again when GM sought to renew the impala, they shot for midpack and underestimated yet again where the competition would go with thier own redesigns. which is, honda and toyota did something new and incredilbe for them, they injected real character and luxury into the design of these cars; they've made them even more aspirational, and on top of that really improved on the functional aspects of already highly functional cars. there are bound to be unreasonable people as long as ignorance still exists, but on edmunds there are a fair share of reasonable people discussing the merits of all cars in the market, and mostly impala is ignored. more and more, the world has turned to this type of existence, where the internet and communication matters, look at yourselves.

I don't see the reason for surprise: it is the biggest car for the price available, and is regularly sold with massive discounting. look, this isn't about one singular issue with the car, this is not about direct pit for pat comparisons with the Cavalier, this is not about who the car is selling to. this is about an appealing car that will help build chevy's brand image and keep it in the eyes of buyers across the land. this is a major regional issue, but outside of Detroit, Chicago, Ohio, the Midwest rust belt, essentially, you don't see impalas except for with rental barcodes, and the reason for this is the basic design, the basic concept is massively unappealing. think about altima and that car conveys a sports sedan image with real quality and affordable prices. it also great economy and great reliability. the trick is it's a real good looking car with a modern design aesthetic. camry is a revelation to me. they finally got a good looking design out. sophisticated taut lines have replaced boring and breezy. the interior is right sized and supremely comfortable, the engines are quiet, a nice ride, plus legendary toyota resalue value for investment thinkers and reliability. how can you beat that accord is all new and dramatically larger, more comfortable. the seating is truly accomodating. engines are flexible and are legendary for fuel economy. talk to anyone and a honda will be on thier list. ultimately it will fall off because of superficial reasons like 'I don't like it.' sonata and fusion are underdogs but both have thier strong points then you have market division occuring because of cheaper lease rates on more expensive entry level lux sedans. what about impala? hmmm....aged, older buyers, not really all that nice inside, from the outside it's 'what? you think i like this car?' i am talking from the average buyer's perspective, no bias here. i want GM to succeed. the market is literally busting at the seams with competition. if impala were selling with a 75-90% ratio of retail and still maintaining current volumes, that would be phenomonal and give reason for all the hype about how well it sells, and you would have a stronger argument. the truth is it sells less than 150k units to retail consumers in United States, while camry sells about 15% fleets, let's give you 20% for all the conspiracy theorists and GM defenders out there. they sell a total of over 440k units each year, recently much closer to 500k units. that's around 80k units fleet. that's 360k units retail, more than double impala sales, at higher transaction prices. impala does not sell well. it sells at massively discounted prices, dealer give-away negotiating, and financing deals. it's also the largest car that happens to be priced the lowest, lower than Camry in some instances. it's engines are larger, and as many will be quick to say, generally priced lower than the competition. it offers numerically more space than close competitors. and yet it manages to sell a fraction of the camry. i call that a loser. I don't think a massive MCE would not be able to fix a lot of the impala's problems: good design taste can go a long way as has been proven with malibu. but malibu is also getting some core tenats within its market segment right...good fuel efficient 4 cyl option, highly sophisticated driving experience, quality ambience that looks expensive, and a solid attempt at meeting family needs. the impala's basic defficiency in my eyes is not being able to have comfortable seating that doesn't neglect rear seat comfort for the sake of dimmensions. if you can't comfortably fit a family in this car, what the hell's the point of it being a large 'family sedan'. the taurus can do this so well, and so do accord and camry. they are damned comfortable. that's a huge part of what counts for these cars. finally, with the outdated proportions it will never look as modern or sporty as say the upcoming updated Taurus for one. I don't think an MCE will materialize anway.

sure and all the while let the brand image continue to be slammed and imports continue to shore up those buyers, while GM continues its dominance of the market share loss. No, keeping a car around as long as the last Cavalier, with the same basic platform, won't keep smart buyers from choosing these cars. that's why they have so many, as you say 250k units per year on the road, and no that number of units won't be detrimental to value after so many are left rotting on the lots. after all they don't sell with massive discounts, and decently used toyotas sell for the same amount of money as thier american counterparts. continue to live in your dream world.

Impala has years of substandard legacy going against camry, and with this move it appears this tradition will continue. they needed a break from the past, something that reinvigorated the name and brought back a focus on the core tenants of what an upscale family sedan should be. as everyone has stated in the past impala doesn't do the basic family thing very well thanks to uncommodious rear seat and proportions that lend themselves to space efficiency in all the wrong places. then it doesn't do the upscale family mobile thing very well thanks to a complete lack of desirability in design and some quality defficiencies. then it has a coarse, loud engine that doesn't move like the imports do along with a lack of a real sophisticated fuel efficient option for the masses. then there's the issue of it not being a practical choice at all because all these things add up to awful resale value. then you may or may not be able to correct a ride/handling defficiency. all of these faults go back, and stand with prior generations of impala and lumina. in short, GM has been playing at the back of the pack for a long time now. and nothing changes...

OC....cars like the Gran Prix are doing no favors to Pontiac, and I am not arguing that Pontiac is not damaged goods. But for all the negatives I can find with the G6, it says a lot for where we are as a market that a really decent mode of transportation like the G6 is constantly bashed here. I'm not saying GM or Pontiac should be happy with what they have. but try taking the Pontiac lineup in the context of nothing else on the market. just in the context of a Pontiac car, and yeah well we're in 2008, so try to remove yourself from the daily information you digest on cars and just look at the lineup. it's not the worst thing that ever happened to the world..... and actually i'd say stylistically they're in much better shape than say dodge or chrysler [not saying much], and they could be considered like a sexy counterpart to a mazda. operative words being 'could be thought of as' bottom line to me is that we may put a lot of stock in the last five years of product and sales.....but there are still people out there that remember a good Pontiac, not that long ago, say the 2000 Gran Prix, the last Firebird WS6.....and now we have a solstice, a great solstice GXP, some pretension of performance with G6 GXP, a radical and weird but still interesting G6 coupe, a hardtop vert, and a great exec sedan at the top.... and there are tons of new people who's definition of Pontiac is just being shaped [or has been shaped like me by a couple generations of truly subpar product]. if we go by my last point of my generation and the one upcoming.....well we can include all of GM in there too, since they have been pretty lousy all around in my lifetime [with few bright exceptions not enough to outshine complete mediocrity in mass market cars].

by the way, this thread may be too far ahead in speculation [well might be is an understatement]. there certainly is good reason for this kind of speculation, but let's take a look at Pontiac's newest car and the trends there. G8 starts at 27k, but is a $30k car for the V8 version. no idea what the balance or mix is, i can give anecdotal evidence but that never leads us anywhere anyways. it's worth mentioning that historically GM likes to trend toward more expensive models when we're talking about a highly anticipated 'sport model' like the G8 GT is. this car is also artificially limited. wonder what the supply is in terms of days' suppplies of units. the car just sold over 2000 units in only its second month of sales with very very limited TV advertising, limited supplies, and an expensive price. what's GM's official volume stance? last we heard perhaps unofficial talk of 30-40k units, yeah i think that was from motor trend. well i think over 2k units in only second month, facing substantial economic troubles and hugely increasing gas prices is significant, very much so, and the fact that i don't think any G8 will be going fleet, since it appears G8 is already a money-losing proposition for GM because of weak dollar. the G8 is already selling at almost half the volume of CTS, which has exclusive plant devoted to it [aside from slim srx and sts volume], which is a hot car received huge amount of attention and massive marketing dollars, and was a second gen update to wildly successful first gen Cadillac. And Pontiac is supposedly dead! EDIT: to further bolster my point, Chevy, the 'volume division', sold 18k cobalts and 26 impalas in the same month. we all know the fleet percentages, between 50-55% cobalt and impala at 60%, though potentially higher this year. that means only 9k cobalts and 10k impalas were sold to american public at real prices, including all those incentives and rebates we all love to bitch about. cobalt and impala which are supposed to be the volume division and have years of history and marketing force behind them.

what's ironic is that the right strategy for Pontiac is one that fits in with consumer tastes all over the world. an entry level sedan priced 23k-33k, think original IS200 and IS300/Alteeza in size and equipment, performance.....this is a perfect fit at Pontiac as well as a good complement to a more luxurious more extreme better performing car at Cadillac. back to the Pontiac version, this is a car the world over would be able to appreciate. in essence an updated version of the last gen 3-series. which sold over 100k units per year in America, as a BMW, with a base starting point at around $29k. the car sold across the world something like 600k units. across the world. amazing. it would actually appeal to european and asian and latin and whereever else consumer tastes. it makes a lot of sense. from there you have another utalitarian basic family sedan, the executive G8 sedan. another basic sedan that would easily sell well if offered in europe. it would need the right style and an upgraded interior as European tastes are highly refined. a simple basic strategy that would sell the world over is what Pontiac really is. that is if they put the effort to actually adhering to the roots of making this an everday man's performance car.

reg that was seriously one of the dumbest comments i've seen on this board in the past weeks. has anybody actually driven a tsx stick shift? this isn't directed at OC, you've presented a valid reason for not being enticed by these cars. granted they're streamlined and hard-pressed for normalcy, but for dollars it's hard to find a chassis as unflappable as honda's can be. the tsx and rsx which i formerly owned are great daily drivers, offer incredible direct feedback which is the best part and truly fun chassis steering and engine/tranny. shifting a glorious honda 'slick' shifter is great fun and putting the revs up on thier engines is a good time. this has nothing to do with regulations or gas prices. as a daily driver they are actually fun cars. getting back to the point of this thread. the rwd small caddy, not having a 3-series like Alpha mid-car for Pontiac is still a dumb idea.

way better looking.....but there's no way i'd choose any saab over a TSX...or a TL....unless it's the Aero X. they just don't offer the right performance. and honda's combination of great shifter, great driver ergonomics, super flexible engine, unflappable chassis is really hard to resist. the looks do count for a lot though. i've always talked about saab's design appeal because i really beleive they have a whole heckuva lot of it. they are a luxury brand and are actually more exclusive [well maybe not in terms of real world pricing] than Acura.

seems GM wants to beleive it is getting its product positioning act together. it seems fated to have gone this way, what with all the committee think and lousy luck in the past that GM would naturally think Saab would make a better entry level sporty luxury brand, as opposed to a Pontiac in that position. the buick seems to me yet another step to elevate this brand. that's fine with me, but i always viewed alpha as a lynchpin for Pontiac. with this decision seemingly confirmed herein, yet again we're faced with an historically sporty, well-known and even revered brand whose attitude was relished by many in decades past....being starved of good product. Saab is its own entity and has a core buyer base, and has a lot of reverence, but it's not as friendly....a bad past with reliability and a niche market history will in my mind limit the natural base that will want to choose from Saab. add the high pricing strategy and you're still looking at the most to just double the current volume saab is at. buick and pontiac on the other hand could have distinct alphas. BPG could become more of a luxuriuous channel. chevrolet and saturn would be starting points, mainstream cars. BPG would offer more luxury. cadillac/saab/hummer would be ultimate expressions of luxury and tech....similar to what the CTS-v and saab black aero x are.

the results will have to depend on the rest of the market. if declines are equally massive throughout, then the results are GM is not to blame....the first results of a struggling economy and high gas prices are in. of course none of that addresses that GM wouldn't be in this position if they designed and engineered highly competent and desirable efficient cars in the first place.

everyone is much better off not reading or discussing those mindless comments.

that just isn't the biz today though. automakers all around are showing the understand the value in niche players, in building brand exclusivity and identity, in unique products that are fundamentally built up to enforce the product message from thier respective brands, and in consistency. look at all the brands' latest releases and try and show me one that doesn't exemplify thier brands in a well thought out way, you won't be able to. it's GM that is yet again behind the times on this one.

to you

I am at a very unhealthy point right now. i don't eat enough....for a few different reasons, principally because I am alone and don't like to cook, so I can't spend all my money on quality foods outside, since doing that can get really expensive quickly. instead i eat smaller fast food items and substitute some meal replacement shakes. i end up getting like 1000 calories per day....which i know is unhealthy for a guy my size [right?] I'm just under 5'10. I don't really know since i've had limited nutritional lessons in my life and don't really consult this with anyone. i've had this pattern for about five weeks now, before that my patterns were similar but equally lacking in nutritional value. I do have some activity, though i feel seriously weakened and can't often bring myself to work out hard. that's the hardest most frustrating part, but also most troubling...

it's definitely in keeping with the insignia. too conservative especially relative to this current generation and where the market is now going. what happened to the extreme lines and cruves and smooth surfaces of the flextreme, now that would make a good saturn astra. in its current form it may be too extreme, but with production headlamps, it could point to astra, notice the same backwards upkick on the door of the insignia the rendering from the first post could point to forthcoming astra, but man it was seriously productionized and blandified.

what i envision for Pontiac is existing as a seperate entity from BMW. the only reason bmw comparisons exist is because the brand's core values of performance excellence are unbeatable and should be followed as closely as possible by Pontiac. with designs with attitude and a unique look Pontiac would exist as a seperate kind of cool. Pontiacs would never compete for the amount of technological features, but in terms of expressiveness, performance, raw hardcore racing setup, they should go for it. this would also allow pontiac to continue the tradition of being GM's youngest division and all the marketing speak that exists of the 'excitement division' would be there and be backed up. i totally agree about the G8 V6, and i believe GM could still go a step further with that one and make it more mainstream while still being that large luxurious and powerful sedan, i.e. by incorporating a smaller engine that's still powerful and yet gets slightly better gas mileage. i agree on the marketing push for the V6 though, right now the V8 is the only one being pushed, and while that's a good strategy to attract sports sedan buyers, and you can bet it's working, they also should look for drivers looking for more from thier mainstream sedans while offering more mainstream practicality, i.e. good fuel economy....